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Cherub721
01-07-2013, 08:49 PM
I would also want to redefine the choreo sequence in such a way that it wouldn't have to come after the step sequence, since it's often a good choreographic choice to do spirals etc. to slow music in the middle of the program and quick steps at the end.

Agreed, and this is also an issue in ice dance with the choreographic lift which needs to be done at the end. I am assuming this is just to make it easier to grade everything, ie, all the elements which require level calls get put in first, so the caller knows that the last (lift/sequence) is the choreographic lift/sequence. I don't see why they can't just have the skaters pre-designate the element. It could be problematic occasionaly (like that time Shabalin accidentally lifted Domnina at the end of a spin and it got called a l1 lift, throwing off the rest of their lifts), but IMO the greater freedom it would allow would be worth it (eg, Virtue & Moir have a beautiful choreographic lift at the end of Carmen, but it's crammed in at the end in a place that doesn't fit musically, while the lift just before it is in a perfect spot musically, so the proper way to address it is to put the choreographic lift somewhere else).

orbitz
01-08-2013, 01:25 AM
Don't most freestyle programs now still follow the fast-slow-fast format construction as they have been for years ? The music choices are more harmonious now so that the transitions aren't so obvious. You'll no longer hear "Send In The Clown" going right into "Funky Cold Medina", for example.

AndyWarhol
01-08-2013, 01:42 AM
No more rules pleaaasssseeeeee!

TheIronLady
01-08-2013, 01:49 AM
Andy Warhol, I think there should be rules requiring the ladies to skate to muzac versions of Lady Gaga. Rules are wonderful because you can keep making them and the skaters are the only ones who pay for them to be implemented! The ISU apparently only has to please Japan and the Asian fans to keep their broadcasting rights monies coming in.

VIETgrlTerifa
01-08-2013, 06:32 AM
I hate when a routine follows a fast-slow-fast music construction. It's just so predictable and almost lazy. I know many (most) do and some of my favorite programs of all-time follow that format, but I hate it when it's so obvious and appreciate it when a skater changes it up.

AndyWarhol
01-08-2013, 10:23 AM
hmmm... i think we should make skaters skate to the Joey Potter version of On My Own...

skateboy
01-09-2013, 12:12 AM
IMO a 'free' program should be 'free'.

I agree with you. Unfortunately, there is nothing "free" about the free program anymore. Doesn't it have more rules and restrictions than the short program? :rolleyes:

KatieC
01-09-2013, 01:41 AM
Personally, I wish they'd allow a single jump in competition. A beautiful delayed single axle that didn't wipe out one of your "allowed" jumping passes.

TheIronLady
01-09-2013, 01:51 AM
I agree with you. Unfortunately, there is nothing "free" about the free program anymore. Doesn't it have more rules and restrictions than the short program? :rolleyes:

Yeah, I don't know why it's not called the long program? The short program can be more free, even at lower levels of competition.

Cherub721
01-09-2013, 03:21 PM
Personally, I wish they'd allow a single jump in competition. A beautiful delayed single axle that didn't wipe out one of your "allowed" jumping passes.

I guess it is not allowed because then skaters who popped a jump would attempt it again later, claiming that the pop was a "choreographic single." This could be alleviated by making the jump count as a pass unless the skater has pre-designated it as choreography ("I'm going to do a single axel at 3:19 in the program after my layback spin"). I feel like there's lots of little fixes the ISU could do to give the skaters more freedom.

briancoogaert
01-09-2013, 03:45 PM
Personally, I wish they'd allow a single jump in competition. A beautiful delayed single axle that didn't wipe out one of your "allowed" jumping passes.
It is allowed if you do it after you 7 jumping passes. You will receive 0, then, lol.

gkelly
01-09-2013, 03:51 PM
Skaters are certainly allowed to do single jumps, but if they are listed jumps (from any of the six basic takeoffs), they will count as jump passes -- walleys and inside axels don't count.

One way to avoid losing points under the current rules would be to plan a special single jump at the end of the program, after the last jump pass that does count. I.e., as an 8th jump pass for a lady or 9th for a man.

For some skaters, it might be worthwhile to plan a single jump earlier in the program and "waste" a jump pass on a single. E.g., a man who does two triple-triples but no quads can likely fit all his multi-revolution jumps into 6 jump passes. Then he could do 2A+2A sequence for one of the additional passes and a special single jump as another pass. If the special single takes more energy than the 2A+2A or a solo 3S and/or it fits the music and choreography better at an earlier point in the program, it would still be worth doing because he has an extra jump pass available anyway.

If we allow women several extra seconds of program time and an extra element that could be used for a jump pass, then fitting all the triples and double axel into 7 passes and an easier jump into the 8th pass (which wouldn't have to be the last one).

Even with 7 jumping passes, the best female jumpers who can do two triple-triples (or one 3-3 and 2A+3T) can end up with a spare jumping pass as above. The weaker senior jumpers and many juniors who can only do two different triples and double axel need a maximum of 6 passes for their difficult jumps -- most likely they would fill the extra one with double lutz or flip or loop, but an enhanced single axel would also be an option.

I would like the value of the +GOEs large enough so that +3 on a single jump would be worth more than 0 or +1 on a double jump. That would be incentive to work on special +3-worthy singles in place of filler doubles. And similarly make enhanced double jumps more valuable than borderline triples.


Another option, but not one I especially recommend or expect the ISU to accept, would be to change the rules to allow one additional jump pass in the maximum, but drop the scores for whichever pass scored lowest. So if a skater does 9 jumps, of which one is a pop or a downgraded easy triple with a fall and one is a good delayed axel, then the scores for the axel would count. On a different day when the skater succeeds at landing that other attempted triple, then the score for the single axel would be the one dropped, but it would still be there to enhance the PCS.

TheIronLady
01-09-2013, 07:49 PM
Reading these thoughtful suggestions by gkelly, cherub721, and KatieC makes me sad. There is so much crammed into the program that I doubt a single jump would be appealing to the skaters themselves. It's unfortunate because these are good choreographic options that would enhance skaters with a talent for pure jumping.

Susan M
01-09-2013, 10:19 PM
IMO the ladiezzz programs are all slow enough, thanks.
That's kind of what I was thinking. I do agree with the premise of this thread, though, that programs need some breathing space to break up all the clutter, for the benefit of the skater and the audience. If there was a new rule, I'd word it in terms of requiring the well-balanced program to have a distinct change in tempo in the music and choreography, demonstrating the skater's skill at both kinds of movement. (I don't mean to limit them to one change in tempo, but to require at least one.)

Personally, I prefered the fast-slow-fast programs to the ones we've seen more recently, but slow-fast-slow should be Ok too. (Although, IIRC, judges historically did not like slow-fast-slow, as it looks too much like a cover for bad conditioning.)

BigB08822
01-10-2013, 04:24 AM
I don't see the point of a new rule. There is nothing stopping anyone from doing a slow section if they want or need it.