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View Full Version : UPDATED Connecticut elementary school shooting - 20+ dead (incl gunman)



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tarotx
12-17-2012, 06:39 PM
John Ondrasik ‏@johnondrasik
We need to address mental illness, school security, culture, guns, and the fates of a free society. #54F

John Ondrasik ‏@johnondrasik
If it's all about guns, pro or con, your advancing a political agenda and don't want to face the hard reality of the problem. #54F

manhn
12-17-2012, 06:44 PM
Exactly, what kind of buildings do people want their children to learn in? My university looked like a prison (just looked it) and I HATED IT. Not very conducive to learning.

And if issues like mental illness or school security want to be addressed, that's gonna cost money. How are those fiscal cliff talks going, by the way?

BlueRidge
12-17-2012, 07:04 PM
It makes me sad to think that schools are now tightening security, having more drills, and doing more things that will make it feel like schools are not a safe space. I'm sure there are lots of kids today who were scared to go to school. It just shouldn't be that way.

Jenny
12-17-2012, 07:28 PM
It makes me sad to think that schools are now tightening security, having more drills, and doing more things that will make it feel like schools are not a safe space. I'm sure there are lots of kids today who were scared to go to school. It just shouldn't be that way.

But hasn't it always been something? My elementary school backed onto a ravine that a lot of kids used as a shortcut to school, and there were regular rumours of bad people doing bad things in the woods that freaked us out - I still recall some of the mental images, and this is now 40 years or more ago. Parents would insist their kids take the long route to school, and I think teachers forbade kids from venturing into the woods at recess etc. And that's just the tip of it - I remember many stern warnings from parents and teachers about all manner of dangers that scared many of us, and plenty of conduct rules designed to keep us out of harm's way.

This tragedy and all the coverage has brought back additional memories as well - kids who had brought knives to school, knowing lots of kids who were doing drugs and committing crimes, several suicides, and overhearing a teenage babysitter talking to his younger brother on the phone about getting a gun.

And another reason for being scared to go to school? Teachers had a lot more leeway back then, and would impose physical punishment on misbehaving kids.

Some things have changed, but some things haven't I think.

BlueRidge
12-17-2012, 07:34 PM
Well not back in the olden days when I went to school. In a middle class placid neighborhood. :shuffle:

But I do think kids will be more afraid as more security is put in place after hearing about shootings. I don't think we should be locking down our schools. I realize that there are schools that are in crime-ridden neighborhoods that were already unsafe. I don't accept that either. It shouldn't be that way. Kids shouldn't go to school afraid for their safety. I think we have a social responsible to ensure that schools are safe spaces. Do we fail at that regularly? Yes, but that doesn't mean we should not keep trying.

milanessa
12-17-2012, 07:44 PM
Well not back in the olden days when I went to school. In a middle class placid neighborhood. :shuffle:


Me neither. I get why some roll their eyes when others talk about "the good ole days" but some things were better. The only fear I had in elementary school was being late because my mother didn't care if she got me up in time or not. The school backed onto a wooded lot and there were always rumors about bad men in the woods but, frankly, I think that's all it was - rumors. The big kids trying to scare the little kids. It must have been a school much like Sandy Hook ES except mine was in a working class neighborhood. K through 4th grade, we went home for lunch and we felt safe although I guess we didn't think of it in those terms. It was just where we went everyday and expected to go home after classes were over.

Jenny
12-17-2012, 07:48 PM
Agree it's a terrible thing, but I do wonder if this utopian vision of the American dream actually ever existed.

It might have looked all idyllic on Leave It to Beaver, but that was the same era when people were building bomb shelters, conducting air raid drills and accusing their neighbours of being communist. Near where I live, there was an infamous rape and murder of a young teen girl on a perfect country summer day in the late 1950s, and only later did it come out that there were several known child sex offenders living among them - and she lived on a military base.

For elementary school in the early 70s, I lived first in a well-to-do suburb that looked the picture of innocence, but as I described, we didn't always feel safe at school or in our community. For middle school and high school, I lived in an average bedroom community - not a hotbed of gangs, crime etc one would think, but there was all kinds of scary stuff going on. And if I didn't tell my parents about half the stuff, I wonder how much they kept from me? I do remember that my father taught me a lot about personal safety and how to handle myself though, so there must have been reasons for that.

My husband grew up in suburbia, and has told me many tales of violence among middle schoolers in the 1970s, and that there were certain hockey coaches that all the boys knew to stay away from.

Again, I agree with you that kids should feel safe at school, and in their community; I just don't know if, as a whole, they ever were.

BlueRidge
12-17-2012, 07:49 PM
I went to elementary school in a quiet middle class neighborhood. I don't ever recall hearing of a safety concern (other than fire drills). But this was way back in the middle of the last century. And even then there were elementary schools in my city that faced different circumstances. My experience may be the ideal, but I say we strive for the ideal for everyone, not shrug and say there are always dangers of one kind or another.

ETA: I definitey don't think that just because at some other time there was fear of nuclear weapons (something that wasn't just accepted then either) we should accept some other fear, such a mass shootings now. There are all kinds of things to be afraid of, but if there is an opportunity to make changes that will only effect one of them, I don't see the point in saying, well kids will just be afraid of something else so ... so, what exactly?

cruisin
12-17-2012, 07:55 PM
In the good ole days, we had air raid drills. In elementary school, we had to go into the hallway, line up against the walls, get down on our knees, facing the wall, and put out heads down, with our arms over our heads. Commies were the bogey man back then. This, sadly is (though rare) a much more real threat. As sad as it is that we need drills and preparedness, we do. And I grew up in suburbia, not a dangerous place.

milanessa
12-17-2012, 07:56 PM
Agree it's a terrible thing, but I do wonder if this utopian vision of the American dream actually ever existed.

It might have looked all idyllic on Leave It to Beaver, but that was the same era when people were building bomb shelters, conducting air raid drills and accusing their neighbours of being communist. Near where I live, there was an infamous rape and murder of a young teen girl on a perfect country summer day in the late 1950s, and only later did it come out that there were several known child sex offenders living among them - and she lived on a military base.

For elementary school in the early 70s, I lived first in a well-to-do suburb that looked the picture of innocence, but as I described, we didn't always feel safe at school or in our community. For middle school and high school, I lived in an average bedroom community - not a hotbed of gangs, crime etc one would think, but there was all kinds of scary stuff going on. And if I didn't tell my parents about half the stuff, I wonder how much they kept from me? I do remember that my father taught me a lot about personal safety and how to handle myself though, so there must have been reasons for that.

My husband grew up in suburbia, and has told me many tales of violence among middle schoolers in the 1970s, and that there were certain hockey coaches that all the boys knew to stay away from.

Again, I agree with you that kids should feel safe at school, and in their community; I just don't know if, as a whole, they ever were.

Yeah, that's the rolling of eyes I meant.

BlueRidge
12-17-2012, 07:59 PM
In the good ole days, we had air raid drills. In elementary school, we had to go into the hallway, line up against the walls, get down on our knees, facing the wall, and put out heads down, with our arms over our heads. Commies were the bogey man back then. This, sadly is (though rare) a much more real threat. As sad as it is that we need drills and preparedness, we do. And I grew up in suburbia, not a dangerous place.

You do realize that the U.S. and Russia had thousands of nuclear weapons aimed at one another on hair-trigger alert back in those days? This was a real danger. And a lot of people, though they supported different methods of dealing with it, felt it was an intolerable situation.

Just as many people now think it is an intolerable situation for schools to feel the need to prepare for possible mass shootings.

Jenny
12-17-2012, 08:16 PM
Yeah, that's the rolling of eyes I meant.

:confused: I'm not rolling my eyes at anyone, and certainly not at what happened on Friday.

BlueRidge
12-17-2012, 08:23 PM
:confused: I'm not rolling my eyes at anyone, and certainly not at what happened on Friday.

I think milanessa is suggesting you are rolling your eyes at folks saying things were better in the good old days.

I will say, I only live in one city and I can only speak of here, but the problem of guns in schools in D.C. is one that has arisen and gotten progressively worse since I was in the D.C. schools in the 1960s. It really has changed, though this hasn't here been an issue of mass shootings. We did not have metal detectors in my Jr High School in 1970 even though it was an unruly place with racial tensions due to desegregation. It was no bucolic ideal, but I can tell you that things have changed for the worse since then regarding guns in schools. I'm not just frosting my memories over with images of Leave It to Beaver reruns, honestly.

milanessa
12-17-2012, 08:33 PM
I think milanessa is suggesting you are rolling your eyes at folks saying things were better in the good old days.


Yes.

Jenny
12-17-2012, 08:40 PM
Well I was certainly not rolling my eyes at anyone. As I said, what happened and all the media coverage and social media and discussion has made me think back to my own childhood and ask myself what, if anything, is different. I think that to really have a chance at change, we have to figure out how we got here, which means sorting through the facts. I don't have stats; I'm just another observer with largely my own experience to go by, so that's what I shared.

Some things definitely have changed for the worse - in the same communities I grew up in, parents no longer let their kids walk to school, go bike riding or to the park with their friends, or leave their kids in the care of anyone but their families - a stark contrast to my experience growing up, where I ran all over the place on my own and with my friends, no kids ever had their parents pick them up at school, and babysitters were generally neighbourhood kids barely a few years older than I was.

Just because one presents an alternate view and ask questions doesn't mean they are dismissing anyone else's point of view or experience. I think we're all just trying to understand this mess, and figure out what to do next.