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jeffisjeff
12-15-2012, 07:13 PM
Regarding the question of whether the number of mass shootings is increasing in the US, this article (one the second page) has a detailed timeline of the 62 mass shootings since 1982. Yes, this year has seen an unusually large number, but there is so much variation that it would be hard to draw conclusions that things are getting worse, e.g., in 2010 there was "only" one such shooting.

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/07/mass-shootings-map

Prancer
12-15-2012, 07:28 PM
It is maybe not rational to ask rational questions .

I think it is always rational to ask rational questions if you are seeking rational answers. Of what purpose is it to seek answers by looking in the wrong places and jumping to the wrong conclusions?

The question I was raising is not whether one is likely to die in a gun massacre, but rather if gun masscres are actually increasing--because people do indeed have the idea that they are. I read an article yesterday with the headline "GUN MASSACRES ON THE RISE," a headline that was then completely disproven by the article itself. That is, to me, irrational--and also not useful.

If your question is "Can this kind of tragedy be prevented in the future?" then I think it requires asking rational questions about the causes. Many of the theories proposed so far in this thread have been proposed many times. Some of them have been studied and found to be irrelevant at worst or only very weakly linked at best. Does that kind of thinking help us find actual solutions? Or are we just going to blunder around trying things whether they work or not?

I know that some people believe that doing something is always better than doing nothing; I'm not one of them.


But the NRA is too powerful, that is the problem.

The NRA is not, by itself, powerful. It is the number of citizens of this country who oppose gun control and are not moved to change their minds by these events who are powerful. Opinion polls have shown repeatedly that public opinion changes little or not at all after one of these shootings. In that regard, the US is very different from many other countries, where gun massacres have been followed by massive public outcry for change. That is not the case in the US.

One of the strongest gun advocates I know personally has a kindergartner. Her reaction to all this has been to cry and cry and rant that more people need to carry guns. It's the substantial numbers of people like that who make the NRA powerful.

Whitneyskates
12-15-2012, 07:32 PM
I was accused of being anti-American because I said that I am schocked and frightened that we live in one of the only - if not the only - country in the world that views wide spread gun ownership as a good thing. I informed this person that I am not anti-American, I am anti-stupid, but unfortunately that happens to be a lot of Americans these days.

Sylvia
12-15-2012, 07:41 PM
Lauren Rousseau, 30, was a substitute teacher who was among those killed: http://www.newstimes.com/local/article/Lauren-Rousseau-The-best-year-of-her-life-4120850.php

Live updates, collection of videos, official news releases: http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/12/15/live-updates-on-school-shooting/

Vash01
12-15-2012, 07:57 PM
So the same assault weapons of today existed in 1790?

All I can say is that now the initial horror is fading, I'm just deeply angry that this keeps being allowed to happen. And yes, improved + free mental services is absolutely equally important. But there's no effing reason average citizens NEED guns. They may *want* them to collect or to hunt or yes, because they believe it makes them more secure - but that's not the same thing. And if this event isn't enough to finally enact change, at the beginning of a second Democratic presidency term...then I may never have been so disappointed in the United States.

For me, the horror has not faded yet, and I am a couple thousand miles away from the east coast. I agree that it's going to take a combination of several actions, including -gun control, help for the emotionally disturbed (I hate to use the expression mental health because many mentally ill people are not a threat to society), education, parents teaching their children right from wrong, and many others- to reduce the severity of this problem. Gun violence has existed for a long time, but when something like this happens, it gets more attention. In this case, the victims being children will draw more attention, and hopefully something will be done about it.

About defending yourself by carrying arms- I see a parallel in another culture. The Sikh community used to carry swords in the old days (I am not from that culture, so please forgive me if I write something wrong), as a means to defend themselves. They don't carry those anymore because there is no need to. From what I heard, the Sikhs are a peace loving people. Even after the Wisconsin temple shooting, they still sounded forgiving, as did the family of a slain Sikh man in Mesa, Arizona, after 9/11/2001. If they started carrying guns (now that those are available, instead of swords), and using them, it would lead to even more bloodshed. Some would argue that if they had guns in their temple, perhaps some lives would have been saved. However, guns and peace don't go together. The escalation of guns, the constant fear, is part of the problem, and so is the lack of right foundation like it's wrong to kill. We need a real cultural change, regardless of what we do with the second amendment.

The 'right to bear arms' is being misinterpreted by so many. We no longer have to hunt for food, and many of these arms are actually being used for recreational purposes.

Sparks
12-15-2012, 08:03 PM
The 'right to bear arms' is being misinterpreted by so many. We no longer have to hunt for food, and many of these arms are actually being used for recreational purposes.
Extreme 2nd amendment advocates claim they need guns for self protection...from the government itself. The purchase of guns went up after President Obama's re-election. I've been watching some of these people/groups. They truly believe that Obama is a tyrant, will take away all their guns, and enslave them in some sort of Communist work camp.

cruisin
12-15-2012, 08:26 PM
In the past week, people have been killed while Christmas shopping at a mall, someone was assassinated on a New York street, and young children were killed at school. What needs to happen for this insanity to end? As someone who lives in another country and sees the gun culture and gun violence in the US for what it is, I can't understand why citizens/politicians can be so passive and allow this to happen, time and time again. It is my great hope that Obama, in his second term with no need to be re-elected, will do what is right and push for legislation that will protect US citizens from these kinds of guns and this kind of violence. As President, as a citizen, and as a father I don't understand how he could not make this a priority for his second term.

We can only hope.


And that is a problem IMO. We don't want to take away the rights of the "creative minds" behind the stories, games etc...but we can take away the right for a child to be safe?

I am not saying the people who create this stuff are bad people-but unfortunately there are crazies out there who cannot differentiate between reality and fantasy. This guy was dressed in war gear to go kill a bunch of kindergartners. No one will ever convince me that media etc...does not play a roll when these monsters are getting ready to move forward with their plot. he probably had some soundtrack playing in his head.

There is not just one solution-there are many. We need a better understanding of mental illness, we need better gun laws...why the hell did his mother own a weapon that can shoot 100 rounds of gun fire? That should not be legal. We need to make our children value human life more. There are so many things society needs to work.

Agree.

Sylvia
12-15-2012, 08:28 PM
Associated Press article: As Conn. story unfolds, media struggle with facts (http://bigstory.ap.org/article/conn-story-unfolds-media-struggle-facts)

ETA: The CT Chief Medical Examiner is speaking at the live press conference now.

Prancer
12-15-2012, 08:36 PM
The 'right to bear arms' is being misinterpreted by so many. We no longer have to hunt for food, and many of these arms are actually being used for recreational purposes.

The right to bear arms has little to do with hunting food.

"A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

Whitneyskates
12-15-2012, 08:37 PM
This may be too soon to discuss, but what's going to become of that school? How are they ever going to convince children, especially the very young ones, that it's safe there?

PRlady
12-15-2012, 08:55 PM
This may be too soon to discuss, but what's going to become of that school? How are they ever going to convince children, especially the very young ones, that it's safe there?

I have a feeling they will close that school, renovate it to other uses and build a new one. CT is an affluent state and that's an affluent area. That's what I hope they do, anyway.

bek
12-15-2012, 08:57 PM
The right to bear arms has little to do with hunting food.

"A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

I must say that I do see the wisdom of this.. It keeps the state free.

Whitneyskates
12-15-2012, 09:08 PM
But let's be real here, we're not living in the times of the revolution when a tyrannical King was doing everything in his power to prevent us from becoming an independant nation. We don't need militias running around waiting for monarchist to cause trouble. Our constitution has undergone several changes overtime. We were once able to own slaves, it was once illegal for blacks and women to vote, it was once illegal for interracial couples to marry. The constitution was changed to ban these things from happening because people realized what a bad idea those things were to begin with. I pray for the day when our country realizes what a bad idea it is for people to be allowed to stockpile weapons.

aftershocks
12-15-2012, 09:12 PM
I don't think that the Nanny stabbing was ignored...I know about it in my tiny enclave in Northern California...

The parents of the two children (Lulu and Leo) who were stabbed to death by their Nanny, have set up a memorial fund in honor of their children and in tribute to Lulu's and Leo's love of the arts and sciences. Donations will go toward establishing arts and sciences programs for other young children "who do not have access" to such enrichment and educational opportunities.

http://lululeofund.org/

Sylvia
12-15-2012, 09:28 PM
NEWTOWN, Conn. -- Authorities have released the names of the 26 people gunned down in a rampage at a Connecticut elementary school.

All six adults killed at the school were women. Of the 20 children who were shot to death, eight were boys and 12 were girls. All the children were ages 6 or 7.

Charlotte Bacon, 6
Daniel Barden, 7
Rachel Davino, 29
Olivia Engel, 6
Josephine Gay, 7
Ana Marquez-Greene, 6
Dylan Hockley, 6
Dawn Hocksprung, 47 [School Principal]
Madeline Hsu, 6
Catherine Hubbard, 6
Chase Kowalski, 7
Jesse Lewis, 6
James Mattioli, 6
Grace McDonnell, 7
Anne Marie Murphy, 52 [Special Education Teacher]
Emilie Parker, 6
Jack Pinto, 6
Noah Pozner, 6
Caroline Previdi, 6
Jessica Rekos, 6
Avielle Richman, 6
Lauren Rousseau, 30 [Substitute Teacher]
Mary Sherlach, 56 [School Psychologist]
Victoria Soto, 27 [First Grade Teacher]
Benjamin Wheeler, 6
Allison Wyatt, 6

ETA article about Anne Marie Murphy: http://newyork.newsday.com/news/nation/connecticut-shooting-sandy-hook-victim-anne-marie-murphy-mourned-by-katonah-parents-1.4336910