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View Full Version : UPDATED Connecticut elementary school shooting - 20+ dead (incl gunman)



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cruisin
12-15-2012, 02:56 PM
Of course politicians can force change. Look at Social Security, food stamps, daylight savings time, lower levels of cigarette use. Look at desegratation.

The old saw was you can't legislate love. Maybe you can't, but you can establish through laws a society that tolerates love in all its different ways.

People smoke less because cigarettes cost more and it's harder to find places where it's acceptable to smoke. Cigarettes cost more because taxes have gone up. It's harder to find places to smoke because local and state laws have been passed outlawing smoking in public places.

Tax guns. Tax bullets. Limit places where guns can be carried (as opposed to passing laws allowing guns on college campuses and churches).

This ain't rocket science. There are models to follow. There just has to be the willingness to do it.

But the NRA is too powerful, that is the problem. We need someone who isn't afraid to take them on.

Limiting places where guns can be carried, should be a no brainer - for the average citizen - nowhere! If we don't want to outlaw handguns, they can only be kept in a secure place inside the home, they cannot be carried anywhere. They cannot be kept in a car. Semi and fully automatic weapons should not be legal for anyone other than police and military, period. We should limit the amount of ammunition a person can purchase within a specified period of time. And that should be dependent on the type of gun they have.

MY son said it best, last night. The average citizen should not be allowed to have any guns, ever. If people "need" to hunt, let them do it with bows and arrows.

*Jen* I'm not saying there is nothing we can do. I am saying that even when we do make our wishes known, it goes nowhere. The politicians are more interested in the votes from special interest groups. Now that our president doesn't have to run again, maybe he'll feel that taking on the NRA is possible.

Sylvia
12-15-2012, 03:05 PM
Politically Incorrect forum thread: Mass Shootings: How Do We Stop Them? (http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/showthread.php?86153-Mass-Shootings-How-Do-We-Stop-Them)

ETA: A press conference has started... a list of children's names and ages is expected to be released soon by the medical examiner and the media are requested to respect the grieving families' privacy.

Lt. Paul Vance of the CT State Police said Saturday morning that the suspect forced his way into the buildiing yesterday and was not voluntarily let into the school, as some earlier reports had indicated.

taf2002
12-15-2012, 03:36 PM
ETA: A press conference has started... a list of children's names and ages is expected to be released soon by the medical examiner and the media are requested to respect the grieving families' privacy.


Yeah, that'll happen.

Sylvia
12-15-2012, 03:38 PM
CT state trooper(s) are being assigned to each family, so that may help somewhat.

Coco
12-15-2012, 03:41 PM
I blame the Jeremy video. There has always been violence in schools, but mass, more or less indiscriminate shootings in schools pretty much didn't start until after that video by Pearl Jam.

Rex
12-15-2012, 03:44 PM
I blame the Jeremy video. There has always been violence in schools, but mass, more or less indiscriminate shootings in schools pretty much didn't start until after that video by Pearl Jam.

Which vid is that, Coco?

missing
12-15-2012, 04:11 PM
Oh I'd say that politics is a lot harder than rocket science, as one who has participated in it. If it weren't we'd already have all those laws.

Rocket science you just have to deal with laws of physics. Politics, you have to deal with human beings.

Actually, it's a lot easier than rocket science, because we already have examples of how to change public behavior and policy.

The number of smokers in the United States has gone down. (http://www.gallup.com/poll/109048/us-smoking-rate-still-coming-down.aspx)

The amount of crime in the United States has gone down. (http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Justice/2012/0109/US-crime-rate-at-lowest-point-in-decades.-Why-America-is-safer-now)

The amount of drunk driving in the United States has gone down. (http://www.centurycouncil.org/drunk-driving/drunk-driving-statistics)

The tobacco and alcohol lobbies are certainly as strong as the NRA. But ultimately they lost to a combination of local and national laws, lawsuits and court cases, and deliberate changes in public attitudes about what is acceptable and what isn't.

People will continue to murder in the United States. But no one, not even the NRA, really supports mass slaughter. So you start there, with the lawsuits and court cases, the deliberate changes in public attitudes, and the combination of local and national laws.

If you say it can't be done, it won't be done. If you find out what has worked in the recent past to change things and go from there, it can be done.

Sparks
12-15-2012, 04:29 PM
So it's all Pearl Jam's fault. :rolleyes::mad:

taf2002
12-15-2012, 04:37 PM
Then ask again. Politicians aren't in power independently of the population.

Yes, but the NRA has a lot more money than the average taxpayer. So who is the politician going to listen to - the taxpayer who may or may not have voted for him/her or the NRA who is lining their pockets?

Most of the articles now want to focus on the shooter's motive. I don't imagine the families of those dead give a rat's ass about the motive. Like knowing the poor little misunderstood boy's reason will make them feel better. He probably did have some mental problems but that didn't mean he didn't know the difference between right & wrong. I think some of these senseless killers think, "I'm going to kill myself anyway so I think I'll take as many people as I can with me...at least then my name will be remembered for something."

I understand depression (not that everyone is alike) but I don't remember wanting to hurt others so they would feel as bad as I did. That's just selfish.

lulu
12-15-2012, 04:42 PM
Which vid is that, Coco?

This video: http://youtu.be/MS91knuzoOA

The video is based on a true event, where a teenage boy in Texas (I believe) shot and killed himself in front of his classmates after being bullied for years.

I'm not really sure there is a correlation between the Jeremy video and rash of mass shootings at high schools in the mid/late 90s.

cruisin
12-15-2012, 04:45 PM
So you start there, with the lawsuits and court cases, the deliberate changes in public attitudes, and the combination of local and national laws.

If you say it can't be done, it won't be done. If you find out what has worked in the recent past to change things and go from there, it can be done.

Ultimately, this has to be done on a federal level. There are states with very strict gun laws. However, if someone goes to a state where there are virtually no restrictions and buys a gun, what prevents them from bringing it into a strict state? If the gun is hidden in a vehicle, no one would know. Do we set up screening road blocks and inspect cars traveling interstate? Yes, local and state is a start, but unless the country agrees as a whole that we have to limit access to and the carry of guns, we will loose. We are outraged, right now. We were outraged after Columbine. We were outraged after every mass shooting. But, we become complacent. We cannot become complacent this time. Because it means we always will and nothing will change :(.

As much as the 2nd Amendment allows for the ownership of firearms, does it literally say anything about ammunition? Maybe we can outlaw bullets. Then the guns can't hurt anyone.

haribobo
12-15-2012, 04:53 PM
re: the Pearl Jam "Jeremy" video-wikipedia page- just thought this was interesting-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeremy_%28song%29

"MTV restrictions on violent imagery prevented Pellington from showing Jeremy putting the gun in his mouth and pulling the trigger at the climax of the video.[21] Ironically, the ambiguous close-up of Jeremy at the end of the edited video, combined with the defensive posture of Jeremy's classmates and the large amount of blood, led many viewers to believe that the video ended with Jeremy shooting his classmates, not himself.[21]

Pellington himself dismisses this interpretation of the video.[21] He said, "Probably the greatest frustration I've ever had is that the ending [of the "Jeremy" video] is sometimes misinterpreted as that he shot his classmates. The idea is, that's his blood on them, and they're frozen at the moment of looking."[21] He had filmed a scene where Jeremy is shown putting the gun in his mouth, but this footage was edited with a zoom effect for the MTV version of the video so the gun was not visible.[21] Pellington also filmed a slightly different take of the classroom Pledge of Allegiance sequence. In the MTV version of the video there is a brief shot of Jeremy's classmates making a gesture that could be either the American Bellamy salute or the Nazi Hitler salute; in the original cut of the video this scene is longer.

After "Jeremy", Pearl Jam backed away from making music videos. "Ten years from now," Ament said, "I don't want people to remember our songs as videos."[22] The band did not release another video until 1998's "Do the Evolution", which was entirely animated.

In 1996, a shooting occurred at Frontier Junior High School in Moses Lake, Washington that left three dead and a fourth injured. The legal defense team for the shooter, Barry Loukaitis, stated that he was influenced by the music video.[4]"

*Jen*
12-15-2012, 04:58 PM
Yes, but the NRA has a lot more money than the average taxpayer. So who is the politician going to listen to - the taxpayer who may or may not have voted for him/her or the NRA who is lining their pockets?



The NRA are a prime example of what I'm talking about. It's just a group of people who oppose gun control. They're powerful because they have a lot of supporters and a lot of money.

There is no barrier to those in favour of gun control banding together in the same way. With support comes funding. The bottom line is, no one really wants to. It's much easier to sit back and think it's all too hard and find reasons why there's nothing anyone can do, then actually go out there and force the change.

2 years ago it seemed impossible that Gadaffi could ever be forced out of Libya, but he's gone. "Impossible" things happen all the time when people really and truely want to. The main problem for proponents of gun control is lack of conviction and the 'no can do' attitude.

This isn't meant as a criticism personally, it's just how I see the situation in general.

UGG
12-15-2012, 05:42 PM
Our young children are to desensitized to violence. Murderers are glorified on television (Sopranos etc...) movies have tons of violence in them, there are video games that allow the player to mass murder and then go have sex with a prostitute. And yet people whine about Britney Spears or Miley Cyrus destroying our youth., or complain that a woman breastfeeding in public is too graphic for their taste. Where is the same outrage for these video games? For how the entertainment industry glorifies murder?

There is no value of life. That is one place to start.

cruisin
12-15-2012, 05:51 PM
Our young children are to desensitized to violence. Murderers are glorified on television (Sopranos etc...) movies have tons of violence in them, there are video games that allow the player to mass murder and then go have sex with a prostitute. And yet people whine about Britney Spears or Miley Cyrus destroying our youth., or complain that a woman breastfeeding in public is too graphic for their taste. Where is the same outrage for these video games? For how the entertainment industry glorifies murder?

There is no value of life. That is one place to start.

People don't believe that these things really do effect/desensitize our children. And, we don't want to censor and take away the rights of those who create violent games and films. I believe that there is outrage, but no one wants to risk doing anything about it.