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View Full Version : Virtue and Moir #21 - Carry On as the Waltz Goes On



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flowerpower
11-05-2012, 09:22 PM
^
Read upthread for the various 2 cents. :lol: I'd put my bets on him being busy texting, FWIW. (It's a slow afternoon.)

DustPuppyOI
11-05-2012, 11:17 PM
When I saw the quote I thought the same thing. I liked Tessa's red hair, but she looks great with dark hair too. Hopefully she never decides to go blonde.
Maybe she's saving blonde for the olympic year?:scream:

Macassar88
11-05-2012, 11:26 PM
Maybe she's saving blonde for the olympic year?:scream:

Well, it would fit the Finnstep...

girlscouse62
11-05-2012, 11:40 PM
thanks everyone for the pics and vids. Cannot get enough of the FD. Every time I watch I love it more. They are truly brilliant.:encore: :kickass:

Proustable
11-06-2012, 01:24 AM
re: Carmen and change

You know, I'm not sure. I'd be interested in seeing a different position in the second half of the combination lift. I won't really be able to judge what should change until they do skate it clean, honestly. My concern we'll dub the Die Fliedermaus syndrome.

If you recall, DF debuted at Skate America with a titanic amount of buzz after the skate. It was brilliant, D/W's masterpiece, etc etc. At CoR, it scored the highest unfactored PCS EVER (any program, any discipline). There wasn't any real backlash either (we thought). There was very little discussion of this. But two things worked against them:

a) The law of averages: a statistically specious theorem, but a useful metaphor. Here, things tend to even out a little. Specifically, unless a majority of judges are willing to score them straight tens, their PCS will likely decrease overall simply because of the relatively capricious nature of judges. There's less room at the top, but a few steps below here and there has an effect. V/M didn't have this decline (until WTT, really) because simply speaking, there was more room at the top.

b) And in D/W's case, it debuted so proficiently that change was never really uttered. The dance never evolved throughout the season. You could scramble all their performances, and you wouldn't see them becoming better. They probably peaked at the GPF (like V/M did performance wise) and bottomed out at 4CC (Charlie's asthma really hurt them there), but there really was no impetus for the judges to push those scores higher (so, no impetus to go higher and law of averages = lower scores). Meanwhile, V/M always talked about tweaking their program. Changing the lift. Changing the transitions. Changing the final bits of choreography. There really was the sense with them that they were pushing the program (and themselves) to it's utmost, allowing it to evolve as the season progressed.

It's interesting to note to see that the judges are doing the same thing again. Notre Dame got better PCS at Skate America than DF (and that is basically wrong). Carmen's PCS are lower, but again, we're seeing Scott and Tessa talk about potential and evolution (of the performance, not merely the elements). Now, D/W have a program that will very likely improve as the season progresses, so it'll be interesting. They also have the judging advantage.

That said, whatever changes V/M do or don't make, I hope they keep the marvelous game of tension-release-tension-release-tension they've got raging through this dance. Even within elements you see that tonal change and it is magnificent.

aka_gerbil
11-06-2012, 01:58 AM
My thought on V/M and Carmen this year compared to D/W and DF last year is that V/M being V/M, I can't imagine them not tweaking and making changes, even if the rest of us wouldn't change a thing right now. They always tinker; it's just who they are. I don't expect that to change this year, although I'm not expecting to see a whole lot of it until the GPF just because of the quick turn around between SC and CoR. I think tweaking is a big part of their process that they talk about so much, and I just don't expect it to change with this program.

Golightly
11-06-2012, 02:00 AM
What judging advantage? :confused:

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Proustable
11-06-2012, 02:02 AM
Golightly, there will be no Canadian judge on the panel, whereas it's likely there will be an American one.

Golightly
11-06-2012, 02:09 AM
Golightly, there will be no Canadian judge on the panel, whereas it's likely there will be an American one.

Are we still doing this? Come on now.

Anyway, Carmen can't suffer from the Die Fliedermaus syndrome because unlike DF, Carmen wasn't skated 100% clean. I saw Die Fliedermaus at Skate America, I was impressed, still I was patient, I decided to wait because I knew it was a program that might peak too soon, which is what happened. Carmen? Isn't anywhere near what we saw at Skate America two seasons ago, it's a work in progress. As for the PCS being lower, they had to be, the didn't skate it cleanly. Yet, Notre Dame was cleaner and look at the score? So, yeah, I don't see this disadvantage. Maybe I am silly, but I never use the judges' nationalities as an argument to explain why a team wins or loses. Not these days and after what happened in the past.

Subway
11-06-2012, 02:11 AM
I worry about Marina trying to put her "stamp" on this program - God knows we've seen enough of her stuff over the years - I hope she keeps her hands off this. It' the best thing they've ever done, and I cant wait to see this at Worlds. They should bring down the house.

Marina's "stamp" is already all over this program. It's genius because it's a figure skating tour de force, not because it uses modern shaping. There's none of us who know what choreography Marina contributed, what Tessa, and what Swan. That's assumption, most of it based on prejudice. Zoueva is as collaborative as they come. Once the decision was made to use contemporary movement, they needed someone who had that vocabulary. It doesn't make Swan responsible for the construction of the program or the layout, or the translation of the movement and transitions into figure skating, which is the most important part.

This program is brilliant because most ice dancers with exciting lifts and "modern" shapes aren't doing anything exciting at all for figure skating. Avant garde elements are there "even though" they're skating, not "because" they're skating. It's not advancing figure skating to put modern style movement on the ice unless the skating itself is also challenged. The skating has to adjust.

Here's an example even though it's not modern. D/W had a wonderful lift in Phantom of the Opera. Charlie is gliding backwards on a flat, I believe. He flips Meryl over his head and she balances on his back, her blade on the back of his leg. Then she dismounts on two feet. That move showed nothing of their figure skating skill in itself and didn't advance the sport. The skating prior to it, and immediately after it, showed they could execute something as athletic as that and resume wonderul skating, which few could do, but it wasn't of itself an example of great figure skating. It's just style.

The modern movement for VM's Carmen allows fantastic lifts like the one at the end, which would look wrong for a Carmen all dressed up in a red flamenco-style dress, but fits seamlessly into the modern take on the piece and also brilliantly showcases the dynamic Scott and Tessa are playing, and most of all, is a brilliantly done ice dance element. Stylistically, that's fantastic, because it prevents the program from being a kind of weird pastiche like P&B do, even though I love them. But the core values are ice dance ones.

This is a skating tour de force and Jennifer Swan isn't a figure skater. There's nothing worth talking about if it were simply modern dance "while" some skaters were skating and hitting their elements. The genius of it is the intensity of the demands on Scott and Tessa's skating skills, not just their athletic skills. That's where Marina comes in.

We don't know what Marina did choreographically or what Swan did. It's pretty ridiculous to praise Swan as if she's the author of this program, as if the skating translation part is just sort of incidental.

It makes no sense to use this program as a stick to insult Marina Zoueva. It's a brilliant figure skating program not because of the style, but because how the style challenges Scott and Tessa as ice dancers and what they've achieved in ice dance as nobody else who's done moden before has done. They have had to figure out how to ice dance every single thing in this program, not stop and do a trick, as other medalists have done, or just adopt the "style". Style isn't why it's great, or why it has the potential for 200 points. Style is the setting for it, and last I looked, Swan isn't a CoP expert or an ice dance layout expert (do this, this and this in 4:5 minutes).

It's not because it's "modern" that it's awesome. Modern and contemporary (sort of swept under a "theatrical" umbrella) is the single most overused style in ice dance going back the past 25 years and what a cop out it often becomes, allowing skaters to camouflage their deficiencies the way ballroom and standard hardly ever do.

Modern isn't why the program is brilliant. It's because Scott and Tessa aren't using the movement to finesse their shortcomings as skaters and dancers, but the opposite. It throws down the gauntlet to every team who's used contemporary as camoflage. That's a long list. Scott and Tessa are saying you can do a contemporary program without hiding behind the style, but basically using it put your skating skills on the line. That's the opposite of how contemporary movement is usually used - to conceal a problem.

This program is exciting because of the the demands it makes on their skating skills, because they want to skate it, not skate as normal in between making cool shapes and sexy moves and big tricks.

The moves from the ankles up that we see in this Carmen can be found in So You Think You Can Dance and lots of other places. I don't think matched to the music as well though, or accomplished in the layout of an extraordinary ice dance program with challenging restrictions, or as incredibly musical. And that's just the non-skating parts. The moves themselves aren't what you write home about. It's how it's been transformed into a figure skating program as organically as it has been, and what it shows of Scott and Tessa's skills. If it didn't how would it be different than Snoopy on Ice? Look, it's Snoopy, but on ice! How great is that? Finally!

The modern means nothing without how it's constructed to show off what Scott and Tessa can do with their skating skills. That's why it's fantastic (or the number one reason).

Proustable
11-06-2012, 02:24 AM
Are we still doing this? Come on now.



2009 Worlds. No American judge. A Canadian judge. V/M win bronze by 0.04 points.

2011 Worlds. No French judge. An American judge. The Shibs win bronze by .25

I agree that Carmen won't peak too soon, and I wasn't saying that. I'm just hoping it doesn't (I'm paranoid). I want them to win the GPF too, frankly. The disadvantage is to D/W, not V/M.

Also, welcome back Subway.

zilam98
11-06-2012, 02:29 AM
dang! just 2 weeks into this thread and it's almost time to set a new one! people might want to start floating off thread title ideas

alilou
11-06-2012, 02:33 AM
Great post Subway! :respec:

Golightly
11-06-2012, 02:37 AM
2009 Worlds. No American judge. A Canadian judge. V/M win bronze by 0.04 points.

2011 Worlds. No French judge. An American judge. The Shibs win bronze by .25

I agree that Carmen won't peak too soon, and I wasn't saying that. I'm just hoping it doesn't (I'm paranoid). I want them to win the GPF too, frankly. The disadvantage is to D/W, not V/M.

Also, welcome back Subway.

You're saying that those teams won their medals because the judges share their nationalities. That's a huge disservice to the skaters in my opinion. You might think Samson and Delilah was superior to Pink Floyd at Worlds, I disagree. See? It's a matter of opinion based on what we saw on the ice. I didn't like the Shibs winning that bronze, but I understand why they did and they deserved it.

Sent from my HTC Desire HD using Tapatalk 2

aka_gerbil
11-06-2012, 02:39 AM
2009 Worlds. No American judge. A Canadian judge. V/M win bronze by 0.04 points.

2011 Worlds. No French judge. An American judge. The Shibs win bronze by .25

I think if Carmen is skated to it's full potential, winning is not going to come down to fractions of a point. ;)

I would also imagine that if you started going back through scores over the years, you'd likely find plenty of examples of a team from a certain country having a judge on the panel and still losing out by fractions of a point.


I agree that Carmen won't peak too soon, and I wasn't saying that. I'm just hoping it doesn't (I'm paranoid). I want them to win the GPF too, frankly. The disadvantage is to D/W, not V/M.

Given how they skated at SC, and how they usually tend to progress over the season, I don't think we have anything to worry about on the peaking too soon. That said, I desparately want them to win that GPF title this year. They just need to be further enough down the road to win in December. *turn, spit, curse*