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View Full Version : Virtue and Moir #21 - Carry On as the Waltz Goes On



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sap5
11-03-2012, 02:47 AM
The more I watch V/M's SD, the less I like it. It starts off strong, but then the polka comes out of nowhere, and the rest of it looks like a bunch of elements strung together. Why are they suddenly so happy during the polka? What's the story in the movements after the polka ends? And what mood are they supposed to be in when they do the footwork sequence? To me, this SD is the opposite of their FD, where I can see a meaning behind every single movement.

iggie
11-03-2012, 03:30 AM
igor is a technical coach, yes but tessa and scott struggled with their levels all last season for their sd under his guidance. they've struggled with consistently getting level 4 step sequences in fd last year as well.

the lack of igor does not explain a lack of level 4s, but it sure is a nice, tidy answer for articles.

Shayii
11-03-2012, 03:47 AM
The more I watch V/M's SD, the less I like it. It starts off strong, but then the polka comes out of nowhere, and the rest of it looks like a bunch of elements strung together. Why are they suddenly so happy during the polka? What's the story in the movements after the polka ends? And what mood are they supposed to be in when they do the footwork sequence? To me, this SD is the opposite of their FD, where I can see a meaning behind every single movement.

I mentioned that I felt the polka was randomly inserted in there too, but since nobody else felt like that I thought it was just me. If I could get over that small thing, I think I'll love it.

New blog article: http://www.ice-dance.com/main/features/northern-lights/1503-northern-lights-21-skate-canada-wrap-up. The author says that Carmen is a FD people are either gonna love or hate, which I think too. But I'm glad there are more people that get it and love it.

aka_gerbil
11-03-2012, 04:20 AM
igor was a technical coach, yes but tessa and scott struggled with their levels all last season for their sd under his guidance. they've struggled with consistently getting level 4 step sequences in fd last year as well.

the lack of igor does not explain a lack of level 4s, but it sure is a nice, tidy answer for articles.

These are my exact thoughts on the situation. ALL of the Canton teams struggled with levels last year when Igor was still there. But, like Iggie said, it's convenient to forget that and go with that as answer for this year. His teams aren't getting their levels right now either. IMO, Igor Shpiland is not what I'd call indespensible.

As far as the FD, I think a lot of people are not aware or are ignoring this fact: At SC, V/M outleveled what D/W did at SA. Both teams had all lifts and the dance spin called level 4. Both teams had one step sequence called level 2 and one called level 3. The difference comes in the twizzles: Level 4 for V/M, but only level 3 for D/W.

I'm actually kind of angry that in general everyone's getting a fuss up about levels NOW--we are 2.5 events into the GP series. No one has had a level 4 footwork sequence in the FD. No one has has their non-touching steps in the SD called level 4 yet. A handful of teams have managed to get one of their YP sequences called level 4--that's it.

I don't know what has gotten into everyone that all of these teams are supposed to be debuting programs in October that get all level 4's on elements and all +3 GOE. These teams aren't going to come back in the fall with brand new programs with no to very few miles on them and be getting the levels and GOE they got for fully-trained programs last year at worlds. That's not realistic and that's not fair to any of them.

As for the SD, I'd say wait until at least CoR and see what it looks like that. My inclination is that once Scott accidentally clocked Tessa at the top of it, that performance at SC was pretty much shot. When things go wrong for V/M, there is a tendency for the performance to suffer somewhat. They're such perfectionist, it's like they don't quite let it go like they should and get sort of robotic. Then, of course, the botched lift--which they hadn't been able to practice much (if any) due to Scott's neck injury as that was the lift he was hurt on. If you go back and watch the SD from practice, it was a lot better.

I'm hoping for a much better outing at CoR so I can make my peace with the SD.

zilam98
11-03-2012, 04:26 AM
i agree it's gonna be a rough start off the gate, but i also side with some here who feel that the polka feels more like it's just put on there because it's a required rhythm. v/m's SD doesnt feel as cohesive as d/w's. granted d/w has a theme going on for both of their dances, but i still wish v/m would make their sd (even without an obvious theme) just as cohesive. make the costumes work for both rhythms as well.

Shayii
11-03-2012, 04:32 AM
Lol did I miss something? I didn't notice people were making a fuss about levels. Anyways, about the SD it was more the polka music that I felt was just randomly inserted into the rest of the music, not the way they necessarily skated it. But I agree let's see how it goes next weekend. I'm definitely not panicking...yet.

iggie
11-03-2012, 04:34 AM
Lol did I miss something? I didn't notice people were making a fuss about levels. Anyways, about the SD it was more the polka music that I felt was just randomly inserted into the rest of the music, not the way they necessarily skated it. But I agree let's see how it goes next weekend. I'm definitely not panicking...yet.

the article you just posted had this section:

But the technical panel found a whole array of faults, and Tessa & Scott barely escaped Friday night with the lead. I can’t help but think that the technical side of their training has suffered since the split between their coaches. Remember how brilliant Shpilband was at the beginning of the Code of Points? He worked the system so well and was ahead of the game, compared to most coaches. Since Zoueva severed ties with him, she’s had several other coaches come in and offer assistance, but I can’t imagine that having intermittent technical advice is the best strategy. Yes, I still think that Tessa & Scott are the best in the world, but they’ve just shown a vulnerability, and I hope that the problem is addressed—and for the long term, not just a temporary solution.

that's the article i'm talking about in my post.

aka_gerbil
11-03-2012, 04:42 AM
the article you just posted had this section:

But the technical panel found a whole array of faults, and Tessa & Scott barely escaped Friday night with the lead. I can’t help but think that the technical side of their training has suffered since the split between their coaches. Remember how brilliant Shpilband was at the beginning of the Code of Points? He worked the system so well and was ahead of the game, compared to most coaches. Since Zoueva severed ties with him, she’s had several other coaches come in and offer assistance, but I can’t imagine that having intermittent technical advice is the best strategy. Yes, I still think that Tessa & Scott are the best in the world, but they’ve just shown a vulnerability, and I hope that the problem is addressed—and for the long term, not just a temporary solution.

I think the key is how brilliant Igor was at the beginning. He wasn't so brilliant last year.

Also, just to throw this out there, does anyone else think that Scott's neck injury was more serious than they let on and that they missed more than a couple of days of training?

Another point to quibble on: Johnny Johns is a perfectly capable technical coach, and in fact, has been the lifts and spins coach for a long while now. This article tries to make it out that they don't have someone there all the time when, in fact, they do.

Shayii
11-03-2012, 04:52 AM
the article you just posted had this section:

But the technical panel found a whole array of faults, and Tessa & Scott barely escaped Friday night with the lead. I can’t help but think that the technical side of their training has suffered since the split between their coaches. Remember how brilliant Shpilband was at the beginning of the Code of Points? He worked the system so well and was ahead of the game, compared to most coaches. Since Zoueva severed ties with him, she’s had several other coaches come in and offer assistance, but I can’t imagine that having intermittent technical advice is the best strategy. Yes, I still think that Tessa & Scott are the best in the world, but they’ve just shown a vulnerability, and I hope that the problem is addressed—and for the long term, not just a temporary solution.

that's the article i'm talking about in my post.
Oh thank you. Even though I posted the article I don't think I read that part.


Also, just to throw this out there, does anyone else think that Scott's neck injury was more serious than they let on and that they missed more than a couple of days of training?

Yes, I do. That's why I was more concerned when they got stuck in that lift again at SC. I hope they've changed it.

ETA: I think I've asked this before, but I'll try again. Does anybody here understand Chinese? I'm very curious to hear the analysis of the Chinese commentators on Carmen: http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?feature=related&v=JH-zioeYSOI

jl22aries
11-03-2012, 07:31 AM
Shay, I'm sorry I can't understand Mandarin, but I'll see if I can commandeer a cousin to translate, if you can wait a bit... coffee catch up this weekend so maybe she'll indulge me.

martyross
11-03-2012, 07:42 AM
yea, it was said many times on the boards too. maybe jumping to that conclusion reveals the secret wish to see the Canton struggle and leave the door open so that the competition gets more intriguing. FS fans are easily bored by a long dominance, and underdogs (Detroit teams) are always seen with much more simpathy. believing that a woman as experienced as Zoueva will let them loose on the technical side is irrational hence it reveals the wishful thinking. other than a wish of drama!

walei
11-03-2012, 08:34 AM
Just watched the CCTV clip, not sure Honbo Zhao knows too much about ice dancing but here is what he said:

Before the skate:
Honbo (H): Tessa had a knee injury two years ago but now she is fine. Canadian skates speak with their knees and let's see if this is true.

After the skate:
Male (M): I feel they are not competing on ice but floating on clouds. It's like a dream.
H: They are very good skaters, but I feel they haven't skated 100% today. Maybe because they are still nursing an injury so the condition is lacking a little bit. Compare to D/W, they seem to be using the same style of music, two classic ice dancing music so it's really evident they are in direct competition with one another. Then it's extra important to perfect the details and minimize the mistakes. There are a few mistakes today but if they skate perfectly then they are very good performers.

Reply showing Tessa's first bobble
H: Here is one of their mistakes. But she saved it and covered well even timed to the three beats of the music.
M: What do you think their score will be compare to the Italians
H: Hard to say.

In K/C
H: These teams are very good competitors and we are all very good friends. When we toured in the US we spent a lot of time together playing soccer.
M: They are competing at home so no jet lag for them.
H: Yes so this competition is taxing from Asian skaters, and to cut budget there is only one full day of practice time. Even for world class skaters it's still a trying experience. Need to have good adaptability.

Score comes up

H: These scores really are not low at all (just a Chinese way of saying very good score).
M: 169.41, even with mistakes the judges still like it.
H: Their main competitor is the skaters from the US who won Skate America.

At the desk after the rankings:
H: It's a very exciting competition, like the Canadians sometimes it's inevitable to have mistakes. If there are no mistakes then this wouldn't be called a competition. So today it's evident that the Canadians are the champions out there. From their other elements like the lifts, they put many high risk elements at the end so this got them a lot of points. Tessa's whole body language especially upper body really felt like a ballet dancer. Compare to the Italians their gap between is obvious.

M: Would you add ice dancing aspects into your students if you become a coach?
H: This is a trend because there are many details in ice dance that can be applied to pairs and it's a trend for pairs to emulate ice dancers. Even with the facial expressions and body language ice dancers are often dramatic to win the judges. They are choosing classic music for audience to relive the classics moments and it's something we can use for pairs.

*****

I think that's the jist.

pani
11-03-2012, 08:48 AM
I think people forget all teams from Canton had big problems with levels last season.
So i think 1 good thing with this split - Igor start work on levels of his teams more and Zoueva let T-S did masterpice - Carmen :D
Photos from fanforum
http://s897.beta.photobucket.com/user/Orelse/library/SC2012

P-B get 100,58 with 1 point dedaction. Not bad score, but this could be less then I-K get in Romania ;)
I love B-S FD - it so difficult so i am happy they won over W-P, but dont like there score - only 95 points.
As for W-P - werid. I think SD is bad, but they got good score for it. FD look interesting an dthey got bad score :) But i think W-P is too easy, too open. But will see, what will be next ;)

pani
11-03-2012, 09:00 AM
walei thansk for translation :)
Sad chinees commentators did se difference in D-W and V-M FD.
Did they like C-L or V-M Carmen better?

Carmen Ovsiannikov
11-03-2012, 09:30 AM
Also, just to throw this out there, does anyone else think that Scott's neck injury was more serious than they let on and that they missed more than a couple of days of training?

......

I would hate to even think that but with V&M and the way things have gone this quadrennial it sadly wouldn't surprise me at all. That would further explain why Tessa and Scott were so off last weekend; I'd use the word tentative. Maybe his neck was still sore. If thats so, I hope it's not something that follows V&M all season long.

I am glad that apparently the lift that caused the problem is being changed.



.....P-B get 100,58 with 1 point dedaction. Not bad score, but this could be less then I-K get in Romania ;)
I love B-S FD - it so difficult so i am happy they won over W-P, but dont like there score - only 95 points.
As for W-P - werid. I think SD is bad, but they got good score for it. FD look interesting an dthey got bad score :) But i think W-P is too easy, too open. But will see, what will be next ;)

Thanks pani. I wonder what P&B received the deduction for. If they made at least one mistake I'm thinking that also might have resulted in the lost of GOE points as well. Anyway, not bad for them on their first GP event. Not bad at all.

I do find W&P's SD to be quite lackluster and with the FD I actually like certain moments or elements in it but IMO the overall package didn't quite win me over. It's a bit of a let down from last season.