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View Full Version : Virtue and Moir #21 - Carry On as the Waltz Goes On



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zilam98
10-30-2012, 04:25 AM
What risk?

granted, igor has been their coach for most of their senior years, but i would see some adjustments to be done especially since d/w would have to do some damage control with regard to leaving marina and going to her rival/former coaching partner. who would want that kind of stress in an olympic year?

Shayii
10-30-2012, 05:26 AM
White bread no longer, this girl is fierce :http://photography.ice-dance.com/2012-13/12SC/FD/12SC-FD-6762-VM-MH.jpg.php


Thanks for posting the link to the ice dance photo gallery. I didn't realize that Anna cut her finger. And also the medal ceremony gallery was nice and this picture (http://photography.ice-dance.com/2012-13/12SC/DPod/12SC-DPod-6902-MH.JPG.php) was especially cute.

pani
10-30-2012, 06:58 AM
You need to remeber, that Igor work on USA FS Federation, so he couldnt said nothing bad about number 1 in USA ice dance team. Thats why i think he put all his power on fighting with canadians.
But could we know, what judges really thinking about V-M programs? They had feedback now and will work all season to made programs better.
As for Carmen. The very good thing is - some people love it, some people hate it, but nobody tell - its boring FD from V-M :lol:
I think in past they had more negative post about there programs. And do you remeber, what people were talikng about Mahler? ;)
And i can understand some D-W ubers - remeber what we feel last season, when most part of fans dont like FF :)

I dont know why, but i am sure, D-W will stay with Marina. They were most involved in this split and if they saty with her, they know why they did this.
And i am sure. USAFSF will not let Shpilband take them back if he will still give his ice for all team Russia :), like he did before SA and SC.
And i cant understand, why D-W must go to Shpilband? Eslecially if there fans are so impressed with there FD and i think most part of the FS fans like the SD.
Will see, how C-B will skate in China.

And yes, we hade now only 2 season and only 2 new programs from them. Why we need to spend time on reading everyone comments and not injoy, what we like to enjoy? Especially if from some people i never wait to read nothing good about V-M :lol:

kosjenka
10-30-2012, 11:01 AM
I dont see Igor attacking V&M. He said the obvious. They are not (yet) ready. What he said about SD marks is more about the panel not doing their job properly. What is behind their marks - Igor and the rest of us can only speculate.
I can see why many would prefer C&L version of Carmen on first performance. V&M have a program that needs more growing and that is why it is good they are capable of competing in GP to get to that level.

bmcg
10-30-2012, 11:16 AM
I dont see Igor attacking V&M. He said the obvious. They are not (yet) ready. What he said about SD marks is more about the panel not doing their job properly. What is behind their marks - Igor and the rest of us can only speculate.
I can see why many would prefer C&L version of Carmen on first performance. V&M have a program that needs more growing and that is why it is good they are capable of competing in GP to get to that level.

Attack is a strong word but I can't see how it's in anyway a good thing to say in one interview the skaters are the victims in this split and then in the next say V&M shouldn't have won the SD and that most judges preferred C&Ls Carmen. You can't spin that any other way, he's doing his job of course bigging up C&L and his choreography but at the expense of "victims" in an ego war between him and Marina that he apparently hugged earlier. Unless it's being reported incorrectly it probably would have been smarter to be a little more diplomatic, not bring up the SD point (and you can't really time these things on a youtube video for the record) and not brought up the judges comment. He only hurts V&M and drags by association into this "battle" C&L. The two teams themselves handled this so much better by complimenting each other and pointing out they show different programs/stories.

kosjenka
10-30-2012, 11:32 AM
Attack is a strong word but I can't see how it's in anyway a good thing to say in one interview the skaters are the victims in this split and then in the next say V&M shouldn't have won the SD and that most judges preferred C&Ls Carmen. You can't spin that any other way, he's doing his job of course bigging up C&L and his choreography but at the expense of "victims" in an ego war between him and Marina that he apparently hugged earlier. Unless it's being reported incorrectly it probably would have been smarter to be a little more diplomatic, not bring up the SD point (and you can't really time these things on a youtube video for the record) and not brought up the judges comment. He only hurts V&M and drags by association into this "battle" C&L. The two teams themselves handled this so much better by complimenting each other and pointing out they show different programs/stories.

With all due respect to C&L - they have made quite a progress and I hope they dont have those dramatics falls and mistakes more - but to compare them overall to V&M is too much.
Short dance remark by Igor is legit. V&M were insecure and had problems. They did not receive a deduction for an extended lift, while C&L skated possibly to the best of their abilities - hens the high marks for them.

With clean and polish program - SD of V&M will go to up to 70 points, if not more, but they are not there YET. Their performance on Skate Canada was not worth that much and that is why Igors remark is legit.

I dont get why do so many think it was not okay for him to sate the obvious. I honestly doubt V&M are hurt with this. They seem to be into what they can control and that is their skating. Igor was their coach and they made a choice when the situation changed. He did a lot for them, they also made him even more well known. Skaters dont control the marks they get, his comment is more about the panel. As for which Carmen the juges prefer - well interpretation is part of the second mark, but technical part & skills together count for more. So I think V&M are quite well. This is only the beginning. They had a shaky start and still won overall fair and square.
I think coaches (even better than skaters), especially those who are technical specialists, should say things
when they think technical panel missed something. Less suspicious calls - better competition overall.

I would love to hear from Marika Humpris Baranov since her team didnt do so well on SC.

kosjenka
10-30-2012, 11:34 AM
And that "Battle of the Carmens" is a products of TV stations and press.
Any skating fan can see that two programs and two teams are very different. Carmen hasnt been used on top level for some time, it is very "skatable" and lovable music. There is nothing "strange" about two teams picking it for their free dance.

walei
10-30-2012, 12:05 PM
Igor's statement may be valid, but the action of calling WUZZROBBED the FIRST competition his team met V/M really left a bad taste in my mouth.

Also, we all know for a fact C/L changed their FD to Carmen over the summer per the suggestion of Igor after he left Canton. There is no way Igor didn't know about V/M skating to it and no way this wasn't deliberate on Igor's part. The two FD are very different because of the brilliance of Jennifer Swan, not Igor's choreography because his version is very much textbook.

kosjenka
10-30-2012, 12:18 PM
Skaters are very much invested in their music choice.
We dont know if Igor knew V&M had Carmen for their free dance, since V&M said they were considering using it for SD.

I think Carmen is maybe not safe choice for C&L, but in their comfort zone (remember La Traviata, Love story, La Strada, Umbrellas of...), which is good since they need to work on other stuff before they challenge themselves on new directions programs wise.

And more importantly, C&L are not going to be challenging anyone for gold medal on Worlds. So they can be compared to V&M on Skate Canada because there they are top 1-2.

Once again - Igor said that technical panel made a mistake by not deducting V&M. Has anyone been able to prove that is not so - that V&M did not have an extended lift? That would make Igor's remark inaccurate & whiny. Yes, it would have been a sensation for V&M to be beaten in SD by a team that has been struggling for some time.
One can say that would be a slap in Marinas face and make someone rethink their decisions, but we can only speculate.

Emdee
10-30-2012, 12:23 PM
Skaters are very much invested in their music choice.
We dont know if Igor knew V&M had Carmen for their free dance, since V&M said they were considering using it for SD.

I think Carmen is maybe not safe choice for C&L, but in their comfort zone (remember La Traviata, Love story, La Strada, Umbrellas of...), which is good since they need to work on other stuff before they challenge themselves on new directions programs wise.

And more importantly, C&L are not going to be challenging anyone for gold medal on Worlds. So they can be compared to V&M on Skate Canada because there they are top 1-2.

Once again - Igor said that technical panel made a mistake by not deducting V&M. Has anyone been able to prove that is not so - that V&M did not have an extended lift? That would make Igor's remark inaccurate & whiny. Yes, it would have been a sensation for V&M to be beaten in SD by a team that has been struggling for some time.
One can say that would be a slap in Marinas face and make someone rethink their decisions, but we can only speculate.

This is very grapes are sour on behalf of Igor and part of his politiking. He probably choreographed what he thought was a typical Marina program for C&L. On the other hand T&S used Jennifer Swan to give them a totally different interpretation and modern dance choreography. He probably felt a bit let down in the Igor vs wars. One can expect this behaviour to continue and intensify until Sochi. Let the posturing begin. Let V&M's abilities speak for itself.

kosjenka
10-30-2012, 12:40 PM
AS good as V&M's Carmen is, I and many of others see nothing modern in it. It is typical Carmen concept.K&O gave a modern Carmen.
Tessa&Scott have amazing skills and I am very happy about new positions in spin and new lifts. But that did not make their Carmen modern... That does not mean the program isnt interesting, but they set the bar very high so that is why all their programs are under scrutiny.
It is interesting how Igors politiking is now viewed in a new light. I dont think his politiling made anyone a champion and I doubt it will hurt a proven amazing teams.

Twilight1
10-30-2012, 12:47 PM
Before Zoueva joined his camp he had a couple okay teams. Punsalon & Swallow were a nice team but hardly World Champion material. Lang & Tchernyshev were also a nice team but again did not have that World Champion vibe. The first team that actually had ability and potential were Belbin & Agosto and Zoueva was partnered with him at that point.

I think we are going to see another Natalia Dubova situation with him. JMHO

kosjenka
10-30-2012, 12:54 PM
I think V&M will be okay with Marina till Olympics. They will probably turn pro after.
I am not so sure about D&W. This season will be interesting to see what Canton teams achieve. Both Marina and Igor are smart and I am sure they secured themselves for what they lost with the end of their partnership.

Personally I think Marina works better with V&M and D&W will turn to Igor for Olympics.

Proustable
10-30-2012, 01:43 PM
granted, igor has been their coach for most of their senior years, but i would see some adjustments to be done especially since d/w would have to do some damage control with regard to leaving marina and going to her rival/former coaching partner. who would want that kind of stress in an olympic year?

This is too much speculation without much evidence, of course, but here goes.

a) If, by the end of the season, it's typically close with V/M winning worlds and the GPF, but D/W taking 4CC or something like that, the damage control is minimal.
b) If, by the end of the season, V/M have beaten D/W in all their head-to-heads and/or have a bigger lead over them then D/W's lead over the rest of the field (if the difference between first and second is bigger than the difference between second and fourth/fifth, say), damage control is considerable.
c) If D/W by some bizarre circumstance fall behind another team, the damage control is insane

The thing is we have to remember it's not Shpilband vs Zoueva. It's Shpilband vs Zoueva vs Camerlengo/Krylova vs Morosov vs Gorshkov vs Zhulin vs etc



AS good as V&M's Carmen is, I and many of others see nothing modern in it. It is typical Carmen concept.K&O gave a modern Carmen.
Tessa&Scott have amazing skills and I am very happy about new positions in spin and new lifts. But that did not make their Carmen modern... That does not mean the program isnt interesting, but they set the bar very high so that is why all their programs are under scrutiny.
It is interesting how Igors politiking is now viewed in a new light. I dont think his politiling made anyone a champion and I doubt it will hurt a proven amazing teams.

I've heard this assertion a couple times, but don't quite get the underlying argument. Could you explain why K/O's Carmen is more modern than V/M's?

Golightly
10-30-2012, 01:46 PM
AS good as V&M's Carmen is, I and many of others see nothing modern in it. It is typical Carmen concept.K&O gave a modern Carmen.
Tessa&Scott have amazing skills and I am very happy about new positions in spin and new lifts. But that did not make their Carmen modern... That does not mean the program isnt interesting, but they set the bar very high so that is why all their programs are under scrutiny.
It is interesting how Igors politiking is now viewed in a new light. I dont think his politiling made anyone a champion and I doubt it will hurt a proven amazing teams.

K/O's take was modern indeed, especially at the time. These days, what can be modern? Now, that doesn't mean this Carmen is not innovative UNDER the new system, on which there are so many restrictions and little room to try new things, it's all level this, level that, and teams worry so much about that level 4 that they compromise and often sacrifice the artistic value of a program. This is risky because they are challenging the rules, not because of the content or the theme, but because there's the possibility of things going terribly wrong if you miss one beat of the music. Take the first lift, for instance, her foot so much a grazes the ice and boom, program ruined; the twizzles, they so much as miss one beat of the music and they reach that final accent out of time, and there are many more examples. So, yeah, modern is a relative term these days, but I do believe that it is innovative under a system that's so restrictive.