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View Full Version : Virtue and Moir #21 - Carry On as the Waltz Goes On



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bmcg
10-29-2012, 10:23 PM
Probably repeating myself but I don't think this is a FD we need to panic about. Of course some people won't like it because some people by taste are more traditional and conservative. There has been enough positive reaction to the FD from non-fans to know V&M have something with this FD. Trust in their process, in the knowledge that they take the season to develop and tweak their programs. All the doom and gloom about levels is a bit premature, even Igor pointed out C&L got better level calls in Finland so Igor didn't get the calls he expected at SC as well.

As pani pointed out Bolero had it's haters as well. Not calling Carmen equal to Bolero but when anyone steps out of the box it makes some people uncomfortable and they resist. But that also is a sign that whatever happens in the judging this is a program that made people take notice (negatively or positively).

And I certainly wouldn't pay attention to some of the craziness I've seen out in twitterland.

sequins
10-29-2012, 10:24 PM
V-M FD have 9723 viewing
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BS-Npizu-gs&feature=youtu.be

I think I'm responsible for at least half of that:)

pani
10-29-2012, 10:25 PM
I think I'm responsible for at least half of that:)

:D

Shayii
10-29-2012, 11:49 PM
Probably repeating myself but I don't think this is a FD we need to panic about. Of course some people won't like it because some people by taste are more traditional and conservative. There has been enough positive reaction to the FD from non-fans to know V&M have something with this FD. Trust in their process, in the knowledge that they take the season to develop and tweak their programs. All the doom and gloom about levels is a bit premature, even Igor pointed out C&L got better level calls in Finland so Igor didn't get the calls he expected at SC as well.

As pani pointed out Bolero had it's haters as well. Not calling Carmen equal to Bolero but when anyone steps out of the box it makes some people uncomfortable and they resist. But that also is a sign that whatever happens in the judging this is a program that made people take notice (negatively or positively).

And I certainly wouldn't pay attention to some of the craziness I've seen out in twitterland.

I love you for this post! Who cares what people are saying on twitter or elsewhere. Lets just enjoy this beautiful, amazing program!!! You guys should visit fanforum to get a firsthand account from Meyers.

Also I'm thinking this program is the kind people are either gonna get and love or it's gonna go right over their head and hate it.

Emdee
10-30-2012, 12:04 AM
More than anything I was thinking this weekend after the short that we have less than two years to enjoy them so we have to enjoy them as fully as we can. Those of us who are lucky may be able to see them on CSOI or other programs that one hopes they will do professionally .

I am definitely responsible for some of the watching. Couldnt get the music and the picture of them them dancing especially the place where T holds her head and shakes her hair out of my mind.

clarie
10-30-2012, 12:14 AM
Great post.......bmcg :)

BTW............What's Twitter??..............Just kidding :lol:

I just don't pay attention to it.

I just want to say that there have been many great posts in this forum, and I just like to add a punctuation mark here and there. I'm responsible to many of those You tube viewings myself, but it's great that their dance is out there and sparking interest. It will be interesting to see how it evolves over the season in comparison to what we have just seen this past weekend. It's impossible to say how enthusiastic I am about both their programs this year. Cudos to them. :)

Carmen Ovsiannikov
10-30-2012, 12:47 AM
Shpilband's shot about judges' preference sounds so childish. but it must be more than pride. he might be afraid to lose potential clients if his work for Carmen is perceived as inferior.

I'll say it again. I don't even know why anyone (Igor included) is even trying to pit C&L's Carmen against V&M's. These two teams and their programs are on two different levels. That doesn't mean that I don't appreciate the improvements C&L have made to their skating or how good their programs are. However when you put it into perspective, C&L's programs are excellent for a team at their level. I need to watch their Carmen again (I still can't stop watching V&M's) but it's not as difficult as V&M's and is more open. Nowhere near the difficulty. Also despite C&L's improvements their overall skating still is not comparable to V&M's. I've felt from the beginning that it is stupid to try and even suggest a so called battle of the Carmens between two teams who usually aren't even competing for the same spot. Even looking at the Skate Canada marks, C&L skated very well but the 65+ points for the SD was their top score when they are at or near their best. The only reason they got that close to V&M was because V&M gave up alot of points (IIRC from what Tracy said at least 8 points). Clearly, V&M's SD total was far from what their top range usually is. The same with the FD; we saw almost the best that C&L can do. Not so much with V&M. Basically C&L probably won't score that much higher than what we saw at Skate Canada while V&M once clean and more surefooted should. Granted once competition time comes around a coach will naturally help the push for his or her own team but in this case I agree with Marina. With no games, with clean fair judging, I do believe that V&M have a pair of programs that very well could help them break 200 points.

The fact that some (including commentators and supposed journalists who have covered the sport for years) are still talking about a battle of the Carmens just goes along with how crazy this quadrennial has seemed to me.

I thought a battle of two skaters/teams using the same music would only be a battle if those skaters/teams are contenders for the same spot.

Perhaps even Igor doesn't even really believe that C&L are better but anything to help knock V&M down a few notches. I am interested to see how he feels about D&W; I don't think they have competed against any of his teams yet. V&M aren't the only team who didn't follow Igor out of Canton, yet he seems more intent (at the moment) on going after them. Why?

I give credit to Igor for his abilities as a technical coach and what he has done for American icedancing but IMHO as a person he leaves a lot to be desired. Not just because of his latest shenanigans but also things that have happened in the past as well.


I think this one is more worthy of caption... :eek: http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-ry2pHy6klzs/UI7ED7ww93I/AAAAAAAABMs/8c6q0o9s2Vc/s1600/11.jpg

Oh my Tessa. This picture perfectly captures the essence of V&M's Carmen routine. Very intense and steamy. I remember a time when some complained that Tessa was too happy; perky when she skated and that she had a limited range. Not anymore.


Apparently we've moved on and now Carmen is bad because, listen to this, it doesn't have many changes of hold.

Anyway, I liked Lynn Rutherford's article.

Sent from my Desire HD using Tapatalk 2


I don't understand why people are always so obsessed with holds. Ballroom dancing isn't the only form of dance.So what if V/M's Carmen doesn't have many holds.Their Carmen has its roots in contemporary dance,which is also very difficult to express on ice,it's just a different difficulty than showing different dance holds.

Well, maybe those folks watched a different program than I did. One of the first things that struck me about Carmen (and the Waltz for that matter) was the lack of open spaces in it. How even outside of the required step sequences, Tessa and Scott were almost always entertwined in handholds. Moving and looping in and out of each other arms. And they most certainly were different changes in those holds.

skatingfan04
10-30-2012, 12:57 AM
I know I'm late to the party, but just wanted to add my name to the list of those who adored their new FD. :D I am absolutely in love with it. Wow. I figured this one would get mixed reviews, given that it's sort of out there, but personally that was what made me adore it. I was a dancer for many years myself, so I am particularly impressed with the way they managed to weave modern contemoporary dance movements throughout the routines.

Proustable
10-30-2012, 01:34 AM
Carmen, a slight point

--C/L scored 98 and change for their FD at the WTT. I do think that they, along with Bobrova/Soloviev, are gonna be the next skaters to break through the 100 point barrier (W/P, P/B, D/W and V/M are the only currently competing teams to have done so).

--Igor is clearly going after V/M because he knows THEY won't go to him. The Shibs might (post Sochi). D/W probably will next season (especially if he doesn't take on a Russian team full time. If he does coach R/T fulltime, I doubt it). I believe entirely that he gave C/L Carmen in a misguided effort to derail some momentum from V/M, indifferent to the possible consequences to C/L (sorta like how he took on Samuelson/Bates). None of his teams (C/L, R/T, DevStag, C/B) are competing against anyone from Canton besides V/M (from SC), intriguingly.

--For those wondering, a perfect duo of routines - straight level fours, straight +3s, straight 10s, would score 200.5. SD is 81 points (41 TES, 40 PCS), FD is 119.5 (59.5 TES, 60 PCS). If Waltz/Carmen are indeed those programs, it would be a watershed - likely to never be repeated. That we're even thinking in those terms should indicate just how astonishing this year could be for them.

HSGP21
10-30-2012, 02:12 AM
White bread no longer, this girl is fierce :http://photography.ice-dance.com/2012-13/12SC/FD/12SC-FD-6762-VM-MH.jpg.php

Wonder if Funny Face followed by Carmen was intentional... I always liked funny face, but already it looks like complete fluff compared to Carmen and it's only October.

Cherub721
10-30-2012, 02:20 AM
White bread no longer, this girl is fierce :http://photography.ice-dance.com/2012-13/12SC/FD/12SC-FD-6762-VM-MH.jpg.php

Wonder if Funny Face followed by Carmen was intentional... I always liked funny face, but already it looks like complete fluff compared to Carmen and it's only October.

It does seem like it could've been Marina's grand plan. I hate to give her the credit, but Tessa wanted to do FF for years until she finally relented. And for some reason I got the impression that it was Marina who suggested Carmen... or at least, that Tessa and Scott didn't come up with it, and had to be convinced.

It does seem to be a bit of a trend with them.... 2007 and 2008 first love innocent type FDs, then in 2009 voids, 2010 very pure virginal dance in a white dress, and in 2011 Latin which Marina specifically said was meant to show off Tessa more. Funny Face showed a much higher level of acting than they had ever done, and Carmen is acting too, but of the complete opposite nature. Eventually I think FF will come to be appreciated in the same vein as K&P's Mack the Knife and My Fair Lady FDs, especially now that it will have its historical place as something that preceded a masterpiece FD.

BTW, I hate the white bread comments... I was just rewatching the Latin FD and it's really the best most modern take on Latin that I've ever seen on ice. Best Latin interp since FP&M in 2000. I could see V&M performing that on the floor, easily (I would love Tessa to do DWTS one day, even if she'd be a ringer). To be honest though, as an SD it wasn't that great, because of all the technical elements they had to cram in (it was my least favorite season of ODs/SDs ever; I only liked V&M and C&L).

ETA: Also have to give credit to Faiella & Scali 2003 FD... just outstanding. Italians do it better. ;)

Golightly
10-30-2012, 03:30 AM
You might be on to something.

Zoueva: "They’re the Olympic, world champions — they need to do things no one else has done. Other teams borrow from Tessa and Scott. They aren’t borrowing from anyone."

Oh, other teams borrow from them alright.

Sent from my Desire HD using Tapatalk 2

ddtpdx
10-30-2012, 03:44 AM
--Igor is clearly going after V/M because he knows THEY won't go to him. The Shibs might (post Sochi). D/W probably will next season (especially if he doesn't take on a Russian team full time. If he does coach R/T fulltime, I doubt it). I believe entirely that he gave C/L Carmen in a misguided effort to derail some momentum from V/M, indifferent to the possible consequences to C/L (sorta like how he took on Samuelson/Bates). None of his teams (C/L, R/T, DevStag, C/B) are competing against anyone from Canton besides V/M (from SC), intriguingly.

It will be interesting to see whether your prediction (wrt D/W going to Igor) will come to pass. On the one hand, it will solve the conflict of interest issue from a coaching perspective and could make the rivalry more exciting. On the other hand, politicking (the relative effectiveness of Igor vs Marina in politicking) could have a more significant impact on the outcome.

zilam98
10-30-2012, 03:48 AM
igor seems to have been more diplomatic to d/w post split, so it wouldnt surprise me if d/w would move to igor's camp after this season. but then again, why risk doing such in an olympic year?

Proustable
10-30-2012, 03:54 AM
igor seems to have been more diplomatic to d/w post split, so it wouldnt surprise me if d/w would move to igor's camp after this season. but then again, why risk doing such in an olympic year?

What risk?