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View Full Version : Virtue and Moir #21 - Carry On as the Waltz Goes On



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jl22aries
10-28-2012, 11:35 PM
Golightly your post is so times one thousand awesome. And as apt and articulate as it is, the funny thing is that those ideas in your post should really not be that revelatory. Right? I mean, hello feminism, 50 years ago. But alas you're writing in response to people with world views that don't seem to have been exposed to even the most basic of gender studies. I'm not too accustomed to people like those few posters Golightly is alluding to, and so their responses shocked the hell out of me but hey, I'm thinking they read very different books than I so we have been informed in very different ways. But man, I couldn't imagine a day in their place.

Also, they are in the grand minority and so please do not let them rain on your enjoyment my friends!

Bournekraatzfan
10-28-2012, 11:37 PM
The best part of the battle was the total class exhibited by Anna and Luca. Love them so much. It couldn't have been easy on them to learn that V/M were also doing Carmen.


Agreed and I never knew Anna was so well spoken. Scott was also pretty diplomatic regarding the music by saying that there are just so many music you can choose from so it's not uncommon to have couples skate to the same piece...

agreed. Anna is always so gracious, I just love her. I always enjoy listening to her answers in press conferences as she is always thoughtful and very articulate. I am not crazy about the construction of their program, but I thought C&L did a fabulous job interpreting their version of Carmen (I totally disagree with PJ's assessment) and I loved their costumes, too.


...

I feel like I'm re-discovering my favorite dance team all over again! :swoon:

That's it, exactly!


So I'm watching the free dance in rapt silence and then that lift near the end happens and I say, out loud, involuntarily, a string of expletives. I can't believe what I'm seeing in this dance. How are they HUMAN? What's going on?! It's AMAZING.

The movement happening in this dance. It's languid, clipped, precise, explosive, sensual, there aren't enough adjectives. How are they doing this? How are their bodies managing those positions?! Pushing pushing pushing. And I know this is a common theme in here but it cannot be stressed enough how lucky we are. Ugh all that work, so much beauty.

THIS

Also, I understand your concerns, kosjenka and sequins. Sometimes a team can be within the rules as they exist on paper, but run into problems with how their programs are received (for example, I don't see a country SD garnering big marks for a top team). But I think that with the waltz being such a traditional rhythm and one of the chosen rhythms for this year, Tessa and Scott are fine. Their PCS in the SD suggested to me that the judges really liked what they saw:)

Bournekraatzfan
10-28-2012, 11:50 PM
[entire post]

great post, Golightly! I think responses to representations of sexuality are complicated...certain forms of sexuality elicit strong reactions for various reasons. But you have identified one of the things I most respond to in this program, and that is the willingness to explore Carmen's sexuality in a way that does not pathologize it. For example, within the context of this program, the bit in which Tessa is going 'mad' and Scott is holding her back can be read as Tessa reacting to the restraints put on her by those around her, especially Don Jose. The program does not victimize Carmen, rather it focuses on her agency. As a radical feminist, I really appreciate that they have chosen to pursue this theme.

Emdee
10-29-2012, 12:09 AM
Originally Posted by Golightly

[entire post]
great post, Golightly! I think responses to representations of sexuality are complicated...certain forms of sexuality elicit strong reactions for various reasons. But you have identified one of the things I most respond to in this program, and that is the willingness to explore Carmen's sexuality in a way that does not pathologize it. For example, within the context of this program, the bit in which Tessa is going 'mad' and Scott is holding her back can be read as Tessa reacting to the restraints put on her by those around her, especially Don Jose. The program does not victimize Carmen, rather it focuses on her agency. As a radical feminist, I really appreciate that they have chosen to pursue this theme.
Great Posts Golightly and BKFan

The narrow mental confines of some of the posters on this and other boards is mind boggling. And I dont mean prudishness alone. Its like they are in a time and space warp and anything different from their perception is not acceptable.

sequins
10-29-2012, 12:10 AM
Also, I understand your concerns, kosjenka and sequins. Sometimes a team can be within the rules as they exist on paper, but run into problems with how their programs are received (for example, I don't see a country SD garnering big marks for a top team). But I think that with the waltz being such a traditional rhythm and one of the chosen rhythms for this year, Tessa and Scott are fine. Their PCS in the SD suggested to me that the judges really liked what they saw:)

Thanks:)You explained my thought better than I. I'm just having a bad day I think.

maggylyn
10-29-2012, 12:33 AM
Great Posts Golightly and BKFan

The narrow mental confines of some of the posters on this and other boards is mind boggling. And I dont mean prudishness alone. Its like they are in a time and space warp and anything different from their perception is not acceptable.

Because this is about a competition, it wouldn't surprise me if the same people who object to the sexuality in Tessa and Scott's FD would embrace it if their own favorite skaters had the same choreography. ;)

I really think it's less about world-view and more about sour grapes.

zilam98
10-29-2012, 12:56 AM
wow! look at the speed of this thread! it was just started about a week ago, and it's already halfway through. at this rate, we might go through three or four v/m threads before the season ends ;)

Carmen Ovsiannikov
10-29-2012, 01:02 AM
Golightly :respec:.

I can't add anything else; you said it all. Frankly, I don't even see where V&M's FD is all that sexually explicit. It's very intense and sultry but we have seen the same or even slightly higher levels of sexuality from some of the dance teams from the past. And if I see one more person describe Tessa and Scott briefly grabbing each others thighs at the beginning of a four minute program as a crotch grab....:rolleyes:

I'm assuming some of these folks are relatively new to watching icedancing. They must have never seen A&P's Man in the Iron Mask FD. The lift at the beginning (really was a crotch lift) would have made the tops of their heads pop off.

maggylyn, interesting point about sour grapes. Beacuse I just don't see why else some people would be doing their best Church Lady impressions. This is ridiculous.

lulu
10-29-2012, 01:22 AM
Golightly :respec:.

I can't add anything else; you said it all. Frankly, I don't even see where V&M's FD is all that sexually explicit. It's very intense and sultry but we have seen the same or even slightly higher levels of sexuality from some of the dance teams from the past. And if I see one more person describe Tessa and Scott briefly grabbing each others thighs at the beginning of a four minute program as a crotch grab....:rolleyes:



ITA, I watched the video clip of Carmen & the NBC broadcast, and I found nothing sexually explicit, pornographic or risque at all about the content or interpretation-I still loved it though. ;)
Seriously though, the more I watched this routine, the more I find something new to appreciate about it. The fact that this was the first showing and that routines are almost never at 100% on the first showing almost doesn't matter, because IMO, the theme & construction of the routine is excellent. I love the combination of the combining the mood & emotion of "Carmen" with a more modern dance feel, it is both unique & traditional at the same time. :cheer:


:)

sequins
10-29-2012, 01:26 AM
Because this is about a competition, it wouldn't surprise me if the same people who object to the sexuality in Tessa and Scott's FD would embrace it if their own favorite skaters had the same choreography. ;)

I really think it's less about world-view and more about sour grapes.

Exactly. They're not offended(if they are that's kinda sad) they just don't want them to beat 'their' team, and I agree Carmen O about the 'good ol' days' they obviously didn't watch back then or V/M would seem tame in comparison. Pornographic? That's just laughable.

Carmen Ovsiannikov
10-29-2012, 01:27 AM
left sleeve and upper back

Thanks zilam.


The classy thing to do would have been not to comment at all on Tessa and Scott, which he trained and was close to for so long. I guess it's too much to expect in the politikal world of figure skating.


Probably.
But it would be boring as hell.

.....

Igor, Igor, Igor....:rolleyes:

He really is out of it if he is trying to use C&L to trash V&M. I really like C&L as I've said before and they have finally gotten out of whatever funk they have been in for the past few years but honestly while someone might like the more traditional and somewhat "tame" (I don't mean that in a bad way, can't think of any other way to describe how people usually interpret Carmen), version they do, technically and when it comes to those basic skating skills, body line, partner connection etc. V&M are clearly still miles ahead of Anna and Luca.

Actually watching the ladies event at Skate Canada earlier in between storm updates I watched the young Canadian skater and her version of Carmen. It occured to me that some might be taken aback by Tessa and Scott's take on the program because most versions of Carmen that I've seen (especially in the singles event) don't really capture the real authentic story of Carmen. Perhaps most people have become so accustomed to the interpretation of Carmen as Kaetlyn presented it in her LP that they feel V&M's is "wrong."

ITA about this thread being a haven. Carmen is pornographic and V&M are benefitting from political help (yep I've heard that one as well) in order to stay on top. It's too bad there is even a small amount of backlash since V&M being a bit off in their first event notwithstanding; this is the best material they have had this quadrennial. I'd even go as far to say when it comes to their catalog of FD's this is the best FD they have ever done. And how many times have we seen teams not come out skating 100% in their first competition of the season?

It seems V&M always are held to a different more stict standard than most of the other teams.


Probably.
....My main concern with T&S SD is that it is waltz program and polka section is barely noticeable. While I LOVE waltzing performed by T&S, I am worried that the judges will not be happy with this even when it is skated to the best of their abilities and when they are in top shape.


I don't know, if they could accept DomShabs doing a 1920s Soviet Waltz while everyone else was doing charlestons and etc, I don't think it will be a problem. Like DomShabs, V&M are technically within the rules, so it should be fine. the rules only say they have to do a polka somewhere in there, there's no percentage of the program that has to have a polka feel, and there's a lot of variety with skaters using country, ballet, and folk music. V&M's doesn't stand out as being out of place to me.

....

As far as I know none of the deductions V&M received for their SD were due to them having enough Polka. I suppose it's too soon to know what sort of feedback V&M have gotten officially.

I hope they don't change anything about the SD except for the lift that has been giving them problems. And even if they have to re-work the SD somewhat, even that doesn't bother me. As long as they leave Carmen as it is and just work on skating it faster and more securely with more speed.



....BTW, would it be sacrilegious for me to say I think I prefer "And the Waltz Goes On" to "Carmen" so far? :shuffle:

Set loose the hounds! :D

liv
10-29-2012, 01:37 AM
Ah, Igor. It's hard when after you leave your former teams have even better programs than when you were there. What does that say about you? (D/W have an amazing SD too, my jury is still out on the FD) Nobody just rolled over and became emotional messes at his departure.

That being said, he's a fantastic coach who should just refrain from all the innuendo and let his own teams' development do the talking.

As for Carmen, I find this new dance sexy, but not what I'd consider overly risque by any means. There are no overt hip grindings, hair pullings or overly dramatic facial expressions. Instead it's just a passionate dance that is appropriately suggestive. I love it.

nlyoung
10-29-2012, 01:40 AM
I seem to recall that C&L had a lift in a program from a few years ago (the one with sailor suits?) that was just as "controversial" as anything V&M have done this year.

As far as the lift that's currently causing all the hand wringing, I'm sure Tessa's position is the farthest thing from Scott's mind as he is whipping her around at lightening speed. Can you imagine that even for a moment he has time, let alone the inclination, to notice...? :shuffle:

lulu
10-29-2012, 01:45 AM
They were pretty much silent the entire time. I loved it!

Me too! I just wish that NBC would actually show more pairs & dance though.

m_chenning
10-29-2012, 01:46 AM
http://www.team-russia2014.ru/article/figur/5813.html

Igor about Tessa and Scott

Could you say some words about your students- Anna Cappellini - Luca Lanotte and their performance? Italians were head to head in short dance with Tessa Virtue-Scott Moir and lost about nine points in FD.
- In short dance Canadians had a mistake and as result they struggled with the lift that's why both teams have same points. However TC (referees) for some reason didn't notice extended lift, it was longer than allowed. Virtue–Moir should have deduction and you can see it on YouTube, but... Judges simply presented them a point.
As for Anna and Luca's SD, it's very successful in this season. They skated program perfectly. Italians in general were successful in Canada and improved skating in comparison with performance in Finland a few weeks ago.

- When you chose music for their FD for sure you didn't know that "Carmen" also taken by Virtue and Moir. Are you going to change now FD for students to avoid direct comparisons?
- We are not going to change FD. Programs turned out absolutely different. They are made in a different ways. As for "Carmen" music: it was used, using now, and will be used because it is brilliant music. These programs have different musical fragments, subjects and plots. After performance I received comments from judges, and I know that many prefer composition, choreography and dramatic art of our FD.
- What could you say about first start for Tessa and Scott in this season? Are those mistakes (in their skating) cause you any concern in words of former coach?
- It's hard for me to make comments on their performance because I don't know how they were coached. I don't know their conditions. But it is clearly that Tessa and Scott not in their best. What's the problem I don't know, because it's not me who is coaching them.

---
I hope my translation is not so terrible :D And I think it's war between Marina and Igor. Not so good for Marina's teams.