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View Full Version : Virtue and Moir #21 - Carry On as the Waltz Goes On

Bournekraatzfan
10-27-2012, 08:07 AM
OK, I posted this in Skate Canada, but thought posting it here as well might help the perspective a bit.

Tessa & Scott lost it solely on the levels and some GOE.
First YP
V/M got Level 3; base of 6, GOE of +1 = 7 C/L got Level 3; base of 6, GOE of +.36 = 6.36 Advantage V/M of .64
Second YP
V/M got level 2; base of 5, GOE of .79 = 5.79 C/L got level 3; base of 6, GOE of +.29 = 6.29 Advantage C/L of .57
STw
V/M got level 3; base of 5, GOE of 1 = 6.00 C/L got level 4; base of 6, GOE of +1 = 7.00 Advantage to C/L of 1.0
NtMiSt
V/M got level 2; base of 5, GOE of 2 = 7 C/L got level 4; base of 6, GOE of 1.29 = 7 Advantage C/L +.79
RoLi
V/M got level 1; base of 1.5, GOE of .43 = 1.93 C/L got level 4; base of 4, GOE of 1 = 5 Advantage to C/L of 3.07
That gave C/L an advantage of 4.72

Not quite sure why some elements were only given a GOE of +1 when it's clear a couple had mostly 2's. For instance both V/M and C/L had mostly GOE Of 2's for their YP and their footwork yet only received +1. Anyway, the biggest reason C/L are so close to V/M is that RoLi (rotational lift?). I'm sure once they see the protocols and view the video they will know what they need to do to kick up those numbers. PCS numbers looked fair to me.

Thanks for this breakdown, professordeb (nice to see you back, btw:)). That is helpful. They average the GOEs and then use a Scale of Values (SoV) to convert to the final GOE that we see. I am not sure if that is what you meant?

martyross
10-27-2012, 08:08 AM
wow! :swoon: the program is so interesting! very, very sophisticated and aesthethically appealing, with an unique vibe, and very mature expression-wise. such an original choice for a yankee polka program. it doesn't feel like a "polka program", overall, though! even because the polka segment is skated with such ease and elegance, it doesn't look like a "required technical element" at all, but a real dancy part of the storyline. despite their dislike, i knew they were the best at it :D i don't know how to say it, but i feel that they're going "beyond" an ice dance piece and bringing a real story from the past that is happening before our eyes! i hope i make sense. btw, i struggle a bit to place the program in a precise era. i dunno why but they made me think of "The prince and the pauper" era, which is set in 1547 :P Scott's costume is renaissance-inspired i think, similar to this one http://babilonia61.files.wordpress.com/2009/11/cosimo-i-de-medici-duca-di-firenze.png

Bournekraatzfan
10-27-2012, 08:09 AM
Ok I lied I didn't watch the FD practice after all. I felt I waited this long, I could wait till tomorrow. I'm really curious to see what their costumes will be like. I hope people in the audience tomorrow like the music from Carmen cuz they'll have to listen to it back to back lol. Anyways it's nice to see the mutual respect skaters have for one another:

Yay, Shayii! and thanks for this. I love C&L and am so happy they did so well. I am definitely seeing the improvements, and, as always, they were utterly charming. Bravo to them!:)

girlscouse62
10-27-2012, 08:18 AM
Scott's jacket looked to be of fairly heavy material. He usually likes to skate in shirt sleeves. So wonder if that's why he sweats so much, rather than sweating from painful injury?

Bournekraatzfan
10-27-2012, 08:20 AM
This polka really is a pain in Scott's neck.

Thank you clarie, martyross, and sap5 for the costume info--I really enjoy learning those details. And this is one of my favourite sets of costumes for these two. They are gorgeous and suit this program perfectly, imo.

just some thoughts on the levels:

On steps 22-24, (when they pass the Ontario sign on the boards and are between that and the True Sport sign), when Tessa performs the closed choctaw with the free left crossed behind, it looks to me like she does not get onto a clear right back outside edge when she transitions from the left forward inside edge (I had to slow it down to see this). Scott received credit for these steps.

On steps 38-40, (when they have moved away from the maple leaf at centre ice and the camera changes angles and shows them approaching and then passing the sign with the little blue-haired guy—it says V-something, but I can’t make it out), I don’t think they got credit for the correct turn, that is, step 38, a three turn (right forward inside for Tessa, right back outside for Scott). In order to get credit for this step, they have to maintain the same curve on the entry and exit edges. They look like they got a little too far from each other going into this step, resulting in the incorrect turn.

On the twizzles, it looks like Scott did a pirouette/solo spin just at the end of the first section of their sequence, thus downgrading that element to a level 3.

On the footwork, I have to say, I love that little lift that precedes it and that first mohawk was :swoon:. I wonder if Tessa didn’t receive credit for the Choctaw at the end—the technical specialists might have been looking for a cleaner right back outside edge there. Also, they may have been downgraded on the counter turn for the cleanness of the turn...the foot lifted a little bit. I am optimistic that these are things that will be fixed as the season goes on. The only thing that concerns me is that lift, but from what Lissa posted, it looks like they were and now again are contemplating changing it.

I wanted to ask you all if you had favourite moments or things that stood out to you in the program. I really liked the flexed feet when they start to move across the ice and the way they varied these with pointed toes. And the way they worked within each other’s arms was playful and lovely. I loved when Tessa sort of steps on Scott’s foot and uses it to push off and also the part when Tessa clenches her fists and then slowly releases them…when these two create moments like these, I feel suspended in time. This program is gorgeous, gorgeous, gorgeous.

And some interesting info: Tracy mentioned that both Elena Tchaikovskaia (Russian coach and choreographer) and Marijane Stong (Canadian coach, choreographer, and costume designer) suggested this waltz music for Tessa and Scott (independently of each other). Kinda cool, no?

walei
10-27-2012, 09:10 AM
Thank you so much BKFan for your very informative analysis!!

The part I enjoy the most is the straight line individual footwork sequence. Last year it was required to be circular and this year dancers have a choice and I am so glad they picked straight line because I think it's much more exciting than circular. It just looks very sophisticated and flowy. I also love the twizzles, even though they had small problems here I thought it fits the music very well. This is one brilliant piece of music composition by Sir Anthony Hopkins!

The last lift there were obvious problems though. I do have a question regarding the level 1 call. Did they received a low level because Tessa was stuck for a brief moment or were there other problems that they couldn't just receive any checkpoints for higher levels.

All in all, I enjoy the program, Tessa needs to change the skirt, and hope they work out the kinks by CoR because they deserve so much higher.

Carmen Ovsiannikov
10-27-2012, 09:27 AM
It's too bad that the costumes may have to go as they are beautiful. However, this is competition and if they (Tessa's dress in particular) are going to cause issues with the smoothness in the lifts or whatever else in the program then those costumes need to be replaced.

BKFan, for me there are so many little details and moves that it's hard pick a favorite. Some of mine are the same as yours. The beginning of the SD and Tessa's clenched fists and all the weaving in and out of one anothers arms which should also add to the difficulty. I also love it as V&M come out of the Yankee Polka and Tessa's blade rests very briefly on Scott's leg. Those are the types of things I've missed. I also loved the mini lift Tessa does right before she and Scott begin the straight line footwork sequence down the length of the rink. Then there was the final spin right before the ending pose with the bent legs as they look at one another. There are just so many things.

I just hope that all those nuances and transitional moves don't end up disappearing as the season progresses as V&M try to attain the levels they need. One of the things I haven't liked about this Olympic cycle is that it's been all about levels or should I say only about levels sometimes to the exclusion of everything else. We've seen it in the past, a great program gets watered down in order to place more attention on the required sequences and making them more difficult.

Before the SD I wasn't nervous. Especially after having seen practice footage of the SD and FD. I felt that with both programs V&M had everything in place to do well this year. They just needed to skate well. Granted they didn't have one of their really great performances last night but now I'm wondering how they will fare in the FD as well. They do tend to place too much pressure on themselves and are hard on themselves when they don't live up to their own expectations.

pani
10-27-2012, 12:31 PM
There were so many good comments after we saw pratice and not so much after SD.
OK. I think any team could ahve mistakes. I dont know, but maybe yechnicak specialists will tell V-M and there coaches what was the problems and they could work on there SD and will fix it.
I wish SC will find good technikal coache for all team from Canada, who could help in work on levels. From the begining of the season they have a lo off problems with technick.
And i think this SD have a lot off potential and i hope we will see it become better and betterfrom competition to competition.
OK, they had mistakes and get low marks - it OK. Much better, then when team have mistakes, but judges didnt see nothing.

And Scott, be sure we will enjoy your Carmen, virtuemoir fans wish to see something like this long time.
Good liuck to all of us today! We dont need to be overhoped, its always interesting to see work in progress. This will be frist small step in this season.

Golightly
10-27-2012, 12:52 PM
This polka really is a pain in Scott's neck.

Thank you clarie, martyross, and sap5 for the costume info--I really enjoy learning those details. And this is one of my favourite sets of costumes for these two. They are gorgeous and suit this program perfectly, imo.

just some thoughts on the levels:

On steps 22-24, (when they pass the Ontario sign on the boards and are between that and the True Sport sign), when Tessa performs the closed choctaw with the free left crossed behind, it looks to me like she does not get onto a clear right back outside edge when she transitions from the left forward inside edge (I had to slow it down to see this). Scott received credit for these steps.

On steps 38-40, (when they have moved away from the maple leaf at centre ice and the camera changes angles and shows them approaching and then passing the sign with the little blue-haired guy—it says V-something, but I can’t make it out), I don’t think they got credit for the correct turn, that is, step 38, a three turn (right forward inside for Tessa, right back outside for Scott). In order to get credit for this step, they have to maintain the same curve on the entry and exit edges. They look like they got a little too far from each other going into this step, resulting in the incorrect turn.

On the twizzles, it looks like Scott did a pirouette/solo spin just at the end of the first section of their sequence, thus downgrading that element to a level 3.

On the footwork, I have to say, I love that little lift that precedes it and that first mohawk was :swoon:. I wonder if Tessa didn’t receive credit for the Choctaw at the end—the technical specialists might have been looking for a cleaner right back outside edge there. Also, they may have been downgraded on the counter turn for the cleanness of the turn...the foot lifted a little bit. I am optimistic that these are things that will be fixed as the season goes on. The only thing that concerns me is that lift, but from what Lissa posted, it looks like they were and now again are contemplating changing it.

I wanted to ask you all if you had favourite moments or things that stood out to you in the program. I really liked the flexed feet when they start to move across the ice and the way they varied these with pointed toes. And the way they worked within each other’s arms was playful and lovely. I loved when Tessa sort of steps on Scott’s foot and uses it to push off and also the part when Tessa clenches her fists and then slowly releases them…when these two create moments like these, I feel suspended in time. This program is gorgeous, gorgeous, gorgeous.

And some interesting info: Tracy mentioned that both Elena Tchaikovskaia (Russian coach and choreographer) and Marijane Stong (Canadian coach, choreographer, and costume designer) suggested this waltz music for Tessa and Scott (independently of each other). Kinda cool, no?

Thank you soooo much for this. I'll make sure to watch it again with this in mind, this is what I needed to see. A technical explanation.

This program has an effect on people, it is captivating. Now, I have a question for you. Do you think those are mistakes that a less strict panel might have graded with level 3s? Because it seems extremely harsh marking. What do you think?

Sent from my HTC Inspire 4G using Tapatalk 2

Emdee
10-27-2012, 01:06 PM
I was so upset last night - but as all of you have said they can work on the levels. I didnt like the cream part of the skirt is was slightly billowy for the lift and Scott looked lost in the skirt !

I too felt that the panel was quite strict.

I wish they would go to some one - Maryjane - Carol Lane etc for technical help.

Macassar88
10-27-2012, 01:21 PM
I've watched the SD like 5 times and I still don't see where he hits her. Can someone pinpoint it?

Nvm, I see where he hits her, still can't see it actually happen - hope footage comes up.

IoanaC
10-27-2012, 01:30 PM

0:15, his left hand. You can't really see it, but watch his startled face right before he kisses her shoulder. It's a fraction of a second. He didn't really hit her, it was more like his hand was in the way of her head...

I hope they can find a way to make the lift work without changing the dress. It's gorgeous, especially the upper part.

lauravvv
10-27-2012, 01:34 PM
just some thoughts on the levels:Thank you, really. It's good to have such a detailed explanation.

I haven't had time to rewatch, but I have to admit that I don't like the SD quite as much as I expected - at least yet. Especially after Cappellini/Lanotte that seemed nice, but nothing more. I see what people are saying about nuances, holds and so on, but at the moment it's not enough to excite me. They also looked a bit slow compared to how they've been before (and again - compared to Cappellini/Lanotte). I didn't notice the moment where Scott hit Tessa, though. That must have set them off, but I am still quite worried about the polka and step sequence levels. Not so much about the lift, as that can be changed.

I hope that after some rewatches I will like this more. And also hoping for a much better skate at the FD - but trying not to expect too much.

beabstress
10-27-2012, 01:35 PM
I always try to find the silver lining in the cloud, so. . . . In the Free Dance today, we'll get to see the most direct comparison of the Carmens possible. They'll be skated back to back, AND since V/M and C/L are basically tied in score right now, the final margin of victory will tell all. We won't have to take into account the 5-10 point lead that V/M likely would have had if they had skated a clean Short Dance. I think that's very exciting!

Proustable
10-27-2012, 02:03 PM
True, there is some excitement in that. But honestly, I couldn't sleep last night that well between excitement and worry. I want to see attack (a la the GPF last season) but I want to see focus here as well. I will definitely start panicking if it looks like they struggle with levels again. C/L have beaten them on levels before (2008 Worlds FD, and yes - I knew that off the top of my head), but I do hope that it doesn't start a trend. I think they and D/W will be at the top of the heap at the end of the season, but if they aren't winning by those huge margins, Sochi becomes a politicking nailbiter.

You know, my favourite V/M SD is still their waltz-tango from the first season. It was such a terrific piece of of portraiture and even though they only skated it twice, they skated it quite well. The non-touch step sequence is to die for. This one ranks second. I don't think Zoueva quite gets the format as perfectly as she does the OD, but frankly, it's not as good a format as the OD anyway.

Silver lining: we know they're insanely hard workers. And Zoueva clearly is not the talon fingered harpy that people portray her as - I think she'll get them the technical expertise necessary (clearly they can go outside for choreographic development).