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gkelly
10-08-2012, 12:42 AM
Well, if you look at the Harding video RFOS posted earlier, she had much deeper crossovers at the beginning of that program, going into her spiral sequence. So I really do think it makes a difference which performance, and which part of the performance, you look at.

aftershocks
10-08-2012, 03:56 AM
^^ Sure, but once again why use Tonya Harding at all as an example in contrast with a skater from the current era? If anything, they should be contrasting Mao's lovely "flow" with an example of a current skater who has "poor" flow, and not reach back into the 1990s to pick on a former World medalist who actually did not have "poor" skating skills. Yes, Tonya's short stride tendency was an aspect of her skating that could have received more attention, but it wasn't considered important to correct back then. In particular, why not just leave Tonya Harding alone at this point. News flash: She was banned from the sport for life.


...

Back to Tonya, she may have had shorter stride in her crossovers, but the power she generated in them was unreal. They never worked with her on lengthening them because, IMO, they didn't feel they needed to. It wasn't an issue back then, if one could display the power she did.

Exactly!

essence_of_soy
10-08-2012, 03:58 AM
I saw Cho skate live at the 1994 National Championships in Detroit, and she was wonderful. I always wondered why she disappeared almost immediately after that event.

It reminds me of the gymnast, Dominique Moceanu, and how she gained legal independence from her parents at 17. Her autobiography is quite the read, too.

aftershocks
10-08-2012, 04:15 AM
^^ Was it emotional or physical abuse that Moceanu suffered, as the reason why she sought legal independence from her parents?

essence_of_soy
10-08-2012, 04:41 AM
^^ Was it emotional or physical abuse that Moceanu suffered, as the reason why she sought legal independence from her parents?

According to Wiki:

In late 1998, Moceanu left home and sued for legal emancipation from her parents in order to regain control of the money she had earned as a professional gymnast. In the resulting court case and television interviews, she stated that her father had squandered her sizable earnings and had an abusive, controlling nature. The court approved her petition for emancipation and control of her finances.

She eventually reconciled with both of her parents.

Vagabond
10-08-2012, 05:35 AM
Still, I wonder why it was necessary to make a comparison between skaters who skated in different eras for this particular demonstration of flow.

Because you would be hard pressed to find a subsequent singles skater of either sex with similar accomplishments whose flow was as poor as Harding's. The only one I can think of off-hand is Bonaly, who is also used as an example of a skater with weak skating skills.


Also, why the emphasis on the "poor" example having to be that of a former medalist?

Because it shows that even highly accomplished skaters can have particular weaknesses. If you watch those ISU videos, you'll see that most of the examples of skaters "poor" component skills are former World or Olympic medalists.

By the way, I strongly suspect Tonya Harding is a big girl now and can take being used as an example of someone whose had one or two deficiencies without getting unduly upset.

leafygreens
10-08-2012, 02:14 PM
I think people find it hypocritical that the ISU is trashing her skating after all the medals they gave her. They apparently didn't mind when she was bringing in money.

I don't think it's realistic to compare a 90s video of Tonya/Surya to a 00's video of Mao. Tonya may not have been a Mao but I don't think she was a horrendous skater. In fact, Nancy's choreo was pretty cheesy at times.


^^ Was it emotional or physical abuse that Moceanu suffered, as the reason why she sought legal independence from her parents?

I read her book which goes into much greater detail of the abuse she suffered. She was physically and verbally abused by dad, verbally abused by Bela, and her father took almost all of the $1 million she earned from tour, built the "Taj Mahal" of gyms. Nobody wanted to train there because of all of their family problems, so Dom found a lawyer to help her barely rescue the gym from foreclosure (it was rented to a corporation then sold) but all the money was lost. When Dom moved out her dad stalked her and would follow her home from classes and call her nonstop. At one point her father even put a death threat against her and her coach and they had to go into hiding. It turned out to be hot air but they thought he might be serious because of his history of abuse. It was really heartbreaking to read about how Bela treated her. One time she was caught with Mentos (candy off limits) hidden in her dorm room. Bela called dad, and dad hit Dom in the face, in front of both Bela and Marta, who just stood there smirking.

bardtoob
10-08-2012, 05:12 PM
Delete

lulu
10-08-2012, 06:08 PM
I read her book which goes into much greater detail of the abuse she suffered. She was physically and verbally abused by dad, verbally abused by Bela, and her father took almost all of the $1 million she earned from tour, built the "Taj Mahal" of gyms. Nobody wanted to train there because of all of their family problems, so Dom found a lawyer to help her barely rescue the gym from foreclosure (it was rented to a corporation then sold) but all the money was lost. When Dom moved out her dad stalked her and would follow her home from classes and call her nonstop. At one point her father even put a death threat against her and her coach and they had to go into hiding. It turned out to be hot air but they thought he might be serious because of his history of abuse. It was really heartbreaking to read about how Bela treated her. One time she was caught with Mentos (candy off limits) hidden in her dorm room. Bela called dad, and dad hit Dom in the face, in front of both Bela and Marta, who just stood there smirking.

That's horrible :(

pollyanna
10-08-2012, 06:11 PM
I never paid too much attention to Tonya Harding's skating before. I'm in no teknik, but watching her routines on youtube her strengths (besides the triple axel-when she landed it) seemed to be the excellent power & height on her jumps, particularly the triple lutz and great speed on the ice. The spiral sequence appears her biggest weakness.

Not to mention her INCREDIBLY strong edges (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=BJuZuqr8nXQ#t=128s), wonderful MITF (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=pU9K1W6w-Vw#t=124s), and fast and exciting spins for her time (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=LsPS1bhAj6c#t=129s) - some of her spin positions were so unique. I loved Tonya's skating and I am surprised that she would ever be used as an example of poor flow. And I agree that comparing skaters from different eras with completely different judging systems is ludicrous.

Vagabond
10-08-2012, 06:20 PM
Not to mention her INCREDIBLY strong edges (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=BJuZuqr8nXQ#t=128s), wonderful MITF (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=pU9K1W6w-Vw#t=124s), and fast and exciting spins for her time (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=LsPS1bhAj6c#t=129s) - some of her spin positions were so unique. I loved Tonya's skating and I am surprised that she would ever be used as an example of poor flow.

:wall:

The ISU's Definition of "Flow and Effortless Glide" (http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/fileurl/0,11040,4844-152086-169302-64121-0-file,00.pdf)


Flow and effortless glide

Rhythm, strength, clean strokes, and an efficient use of lean create a steady run to the blade and an ease of transfer of weight resulting in seemingly effortless power and acceleration.

Would anyone care to come up with a better, more recent example than Harding or Bonaly of a top-level skater with poor flow?

pollyanna
10-08-2012, 06:24 PM
Vagabond, FYI, in your quote, my links are incorrect. I've corrected them in the original post.

bardtoob
10-08-2012, 07:25 PM
:rolleyes:

The ISU is using Harding as an example of a skater with poor flow (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=myHKTKu4j6U&feature=player_detailpage#t=196s) because she (1) had poor flow and (2) was a silver medalist at Worlds.

:lol: I first saw the video with the sound off and only the caption "flow", and my first thoughts were that Tonya spent little time with both feet on the ice and her strides were more from underneath while Mao spend a lot of time with both feet on the ice and gained some speed from back pumping and, based on their speeds relative to the boards, were moving just about as fast. Also, Tonya's strides were more rhythmicly even and reminded me of an iconic skater of the past (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=8r42MTdTTCc#t=130s) that Tonya probably idolized, maybe even performing choreography that was reminiscent.


Not to mention her INCREDIBLY strong edges (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=BJuZuqr8nXQ#t=128s), wonderful MITF (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=pU9K1W6w-Vw#t=124s), and fast and exciting spins for her time (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=LsPS1bhAj6c#t=129s) - some of her spin positions were so unique. I loved Tonya's skating and I am surprised that she would ever be used as an example of poor flow. And I agree that comparing skaters from different eras with completely different judging systems is ludicrous.

The era of fans not knowing what the judges should be looking for is long gone.

PairSk8Fan
10-08-2012, 07:37 PM
If the ISU and USFS have banned Tonya Harding for life, they should be consistent and NOT USE HER IMAGES in any way, shape or form.

Just sayin' ....

skatesindreams
10-08-2012, 07:46 PM
I would love to interview her for the podcast. She was really such a natural talent.

Could you contact her?
She might be interested; now that enough time has elapsed that people are looking at her achievements, rather than focusing on her notoriety.