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View Full Version : Would Yamaguchi and Klimova & Ponomarenko have won 2nd Oly Gold if reinstated



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attyfan
10-05-2012, 09:40 PM
As long as she brought her knee pads to Nationals

That's kind of what I thought, also. Didn't Kristi say something about feeling "safer" for not reinstating?

orbitz
10-05-2012, 09:44 PM
As long as she brought her knee pads to Nationals

I hate to think Kristi would've been the victim of Giloogy's thugs. Kristi is smaller than Nancy. That knee whack might have seriously damage Kristi's knee.

As to whether Kristi would've won in 94, I think Baiu would've remained the judges' darlings heading into LiliHammer.

judgejudy27
10-05-2012, 10:41 PM
That's exactly what I was saying. We don't know. Usova&Zhulin almost won it with their FD...with T&D claiming they were robbed !
But anyway, I don't think the judges would have give T&D no medal. :)

I think the judges in 94 would have been more than fine giving T&D no medal. They were placing them a distant 3rd behind two not very good FDs.


If K&P did reinstate and received 1st place ordinals, do you think that would have effected the ordinals and placement of the other ice dancers? Or would they still have ended up G&P, U&Z, T&D, in that order?

In the FD it was possible for an ordinal flip between G&P and U&Z for sure. Even an ordinal flip between G&P and T&D was possible. U&Z beat T&D clearly by the judges (much more clearly than G&P did T&D, ironically with G&P still beating U&Z) so that is the only ones that definitely wouldnt have flipped in the FD. The other dances could have been affected too as far as the placings. G&P probably would have been only 4th in the OD which would have made it incredibly hard for them to still end up the winners overall.


Now, one thing I wonder : would T&D be back if K&P were back also ?
If if if, lol

That too. I actually dont think T&D would have returned had K&P done. Coming back to amateur competition after 10 years away is very hard, no matter who you are. I think they only returned since they saw an easy path to the gold. Usova & Zhulin were good but had been dominated by Klimova & Ponomarenko and the Duchensays for years, only winning a World title once everyone was good and there were no threats, and it was already apparent their skating was declining since 92 with the problems in their personal life. Gritschuk & Platov had never come close to winning a major title at that point, even though they came 2nd at the weak 93 Worlds event. Had someone like K&P been there or coming back, I dont think T&D would have even bothered, which in hindsight would have been a smart move anyway.


Yamaguchi talked about reinstating to skate pairs but obviously did not. I don't think K/P would have won for the same reason T/D didn't. Ice dance at that time was a very much take a number and wait your turn system in those days. Once they retired they gave up their number.

Even though their FD this year sucked shouldnt U/Z won if that were the case? After all wasnt it their turn, not G/P's, they were the reigning World Champions and had waited their turn behind K/P for years. Yet the Russian fed. and their allies clearly backed G/P over U/Z which was why G/P won over U/Z in the end.


As to whether Kristi would've won in 94, I think Baiu would've remained the judges' darlings heading into LiliHammer.

Entirely possible this is true, but Nancy Kerrigan very nearly won despite that.

judgejudy27
10-05-2012, 11:00 PM
When I watched those programs at that time, my feeling was just : why did she retire ? Why ? She is amazing and could have won easily the 1994 Olympic title. And the SP in 1998 ! (And I'm a Michelle Kwan fan).

Kristi could often win the short program over MK IMO, but I dont think she would have in 98. That was Kwan's all time signature program and at its height. That is the only year I couldnt see her losing a SP to anyone if she skated cleanly, atleast not someone else only doing a triple toe. She definitely could have pushed Tara down to 3rd in the SP and if she did that Tara might never have won.

Cherub721
10-05-2012, 11:50 PM
I picked K&P would have, and Kristi wouldn't, but I really mean that it's too hard to tell in a singles event because of jumping issues.

In 1994 the focus of ice dance was on ballroom style routine... who could do that better than the in prime shape K&P? No one would come close. U&Z were clearly not favored anymore, and G&P in 94 could not compete against K&P at that level. I don't think there would have been a Russian sweep (if it was ever deserved it was in dance in 88 and pairs in 94 and it didn't happen), and I guess U&Z would have been the casualty.

judgejudy27
10-06-2012, 01:37 AM
Interesting nobody picked my last option.

Susan M
10-06-2012, 03:12 AM
Kristi definitely could have won a second gold with only a 2 year interval after Albertville. Considering the jumps she was landing on tour and in pro comps that season, it is very easy to believe she could have regained all her 92 skills, with even better presentation after a year of touring. I think Kristi was still a better skater than Kerrigan in every way and had such a significant jumping advantage over Baiul that all of Baiul's magic could not have overcome the technical deficit.

As for dance, it remains the perpetual crap shoot. Klimova/P were so universally respected and admired that I think they could have won a few more years, unless and until some shift in the Russian heirarchy decided to move them on. Mentally though, I think they were really ready to be done with ISU competition after 3 Olympics and 9 years in the top echelon. I honestly don't know if they could have maintained a competitive focus for two more years with nothing left to prove. It probably would have come down to the drama and in-fighting of the 3 great Russian lady dance coaches to determine whose couple was placed over whose.


Interesting nobody picked my last option.
Maybe that's because it doesn't address the dance results, which is half the survey. In any event, Kristi's presence would probably not have helped Kerrigan vs Baiul, IMO. If you look at the judges' ordinals, the ones who placed Kerrigan first in the FS would have been the same ones politically most likely to vote for Kristi (GBR, USA, Japan, Canada). She may also have won some of Baiul's judges (Poland, CZK, Ukraine, China, Germany) but I think her presence would have hurt Kerrigan more.

Karpenko
10-06-2012, 03:16 AM
I feel pretty confident that both would have won. I actually think both would've grown even more artistically as well, and both of them technically had the goods, even on an off day.

judgejudy27
10-06-2012, 06:23 AM
I am kind of amazed so many people think K/P wouldnt have won in 94, almost half. That is why I made the poll though, I was curious what people here would think. I could have seen the doubts if T/D had won or if U/Z had won with an outstanding performance befitting a reigning World Champion, but with a nowhere near career peak G/P winning with not great compulsories, a mediocre OD, and a sloppy over the top FD, pretty surprised at the votes.

briancoogaert
10-06-2012, 08:11 AM
I am kind of amazed so many people think K/P wouldnt have won in 94, almost half. That is why I made the poll though, I was curious what people here would think. I could have seen the doubts if T/D had won or if U/Z had won with an outstanding performance befitting a reigning World Champion, but with a nowhere near career peak G/P winning with not great compulsories, a mediocre OD, and a sloppy over the top FD, pretty surprised at the votes.
This is just because you have a really bad idea of G&P level !

judgejudy27
10-06-2012, 08:19 AM
This is just because you have a really bad idea of G&P level !

Their level in 94 wasnt that high. They were a way better team in the 95-98 quad, even by the 95 Worlds despite being injured alot of the year they were so far improved, more polished, and mature, probably bolstered with the confidence of a big title. I am not getting into a whole discussion again of whether they deserved to win or not but regardless of that in 94 they werent that great. Their rhumba OD was a frenetic mess, way too busy and over the top for that sultry dance. Their FD was entertaining but sloppy, had many spots of poor unision, and way too much open skating far apart, and stoppages.

The 94 Olympic event just wasnt that great with U&Z in subpar form and with a lame FD, and T&D trying to get their FD right all season and having weak CDs which reflected their time away from amateur competition. With 3 of the best dance teams in history you would expect a spectacular event but it definitely didnt pan out that way, it turned out to be an event alot like the 2010 mens event where you felt they should give out 3 bronze medals and leave it at that.

That is also why I think K&P could have and probably would have cakewalked to a 2nd straight Olympic title, and much more easily than they won in 92 (without even having to match the level of their 92 performances). Heck I even think it would have been harder for Yamaguchi to win than K&P, Yamaguchi never faced Kerrigan with her 94 level of determination, conditioning, and consistency before, and Baiul was the judges darling at that point and for all the faults in her skating had something special or atleast felt like she did at the time. K&P would have had to overcome....pretty much nothing in hindsight from my perspective.

briancoogaert
10-06-2012, 08:35 AM
I prefer this explanation to the : "G&P were bad".
G&P had the best Compulsories at the Olympics. And K&P were not that great at Compulsories.
I agree about the OD, and they probably would have finished in 4th.
I agree about their FD, but it was by far the most entertaining, and the most refreshing.
K&P's 1992 FD was fantastic, but the rules had changed. I don't know what would have been their FD in 1994, lol.

Proustable
10-06-2012, 11:54 AM
In my case, judgejudy, my answer is a lot like Susan M's. I do think that the Russian fed had moved on. I feel comfortable saying that K/P would've been better than what we saw demonstrated in the 1994 Olympics with their technical and artistic skills. I'm not sure that they would've been rewarded, though.

I still think the drama would've been between Kerrigan and Harding. Presumably, if Yamaguchi reinstates (as opposed to competes for two more years) the USA still only has two spots (thanks to Kerrigan's meltdown in 1993) and it's between Kerrigan and Harding for the second spot at the Olympics.

museksk8r
10-06-2012, 03:11 PM
It seems artistry mattered way more back in 1994 in Olympic ladies than it probably ever has in recent Olympiads. IMO, as eligibles, Baiul was more artistic than Yamaguchi and Kerrigan. Kristi didn't really blossom artistically until after her Olympic eligible career. The judges turned a blind eye to Oksana's numerous 2-foot landings and lack of combination jumps and combination spins. Kerrigan clearly surpassed her technically, but that was ultimately ignored, so I don't quite believe it would have been such a walk in the park for Kristi to win a 2nd consecutive gold medal, particularly given that she doubled a Salchow and fell on a 3loop in Albertville. Plus, Yama would not have had the sympathy story of being an orphan losing her parents at such a young age, coming from a poor upbringing, and competing injured as Oksana did due to her practice collision with Tanja Szewczenko.

Cherub721
10-06-2012, 04:28 PM
Kerrigan clearly surpassed her technically, but that was ultimately ignored, so I don't quite believe it would have been such a walk in the park for Kristi to win a 2nd consecutive gold medal, particularly given that she doubled a Salchow and fell on a 3loop in Albertville.

Yeah, if Kristi had turned in a clean performance in Lillehammer she probably would have won, but with a performance like she had in Albertville, I'm not so sure she wouldn't have been 3rd behind Kerrigan. Falls were a big deal back then, especially for an Olympic champion. She was still able to win in 92 because others fell and the whole event was a splatfest. The 94 event was not exactly a jump powerhouse, but Kerrigan and Baiul stood up on all their triples.

Anyway, under this scenario, does Harding's husband have to whack Yamaguchi also, and does she recover quickly? :shuffle: