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RFOS
09-21-2012, 06:43 PM
I came across a stupid quirk in the scale of values. I thought they had ironed those out by now, but in the 2012-2013 scale of values a level 2 step sequence with -2 and -3 GOE is worth 2.0 and 1.7 points, respectively, and for a level 3 step sequence they are worth 1.9 and 1.2 points, respectively. If they changed the step negative GOEs from -0.7 to -0.5 for the level 3 then things would make sense, because it would be worth at least as much as a level 2 for all GOEs but not more than a level 4.

http://www.usfsa.org/content/2012-13%20S&P%20Scale%20of%20Values.pdf

It also used to be the case that a double axel with a -3 GOE got more points than a triple toe with a -3 GOE, but that was changed several years ago.

I can imagine a skater now who happened to fall on a level 3 step sequence and miss out on a win or a medal by a very slim marging filing a protest to get his/her step sequence downgraded to a level 2. ;)

That link does say "Subject to 54th ISU Congress decisions," does anyone know if the Congress has updated this error since?

P.S., I wasn't sure if this should go here or in Great Skate Debate. Mods, please move if you think it belongs in GSD.

barbk
09-21-2012, 08:01 PM
I think it really belongs in the ISU Technical Committee's in-basket. ;)

RFOS
09-21-2012, 08:46 PM
I think it really belongs in the ISU Technical Committee's in-basket. ;)

Good point. I was thinking it might get around to them eventually and it's the kind of the George Rossano or Sonia Bianchetti might pick up on, but I suppose I could try contact them directly. On the contact page there's only one form for all emails to the ISU, but I guess it's worth a try!

leafygreens
09-21-2012, 09:20 PM
I can imagine a skater now who happened to fall on a level 3 step sequence and miss out on a win or a medal by a very slim marging filing a protest to get his/her step sequence downgraded to a level 2.

Are protests allowed? (genuinely curious)

johndockley92
09-23-2012, 02:06 PM
Are protests allowed? (genuinely curious)

Yes, but I don't think there's ever been any successful protests?

LilJen
09-23-2012, 06:24 PM
Genuine question: If you fell in the middle of a level 3 step sequence, could you even *get* a level 3 on it? Wouldn't that automatically drop it to a 1 or 2? Or would it just be level 3 with -3 GOE?

Aussie Willy
09-23-2012, 11:01 PM
Are protests allowed? (genuinely curious)
Yes protests are allowed but they really should be done before the presentations. Because results are only provisional until the presentations. After the presentation the results stand.

gkelly
09-23-2012, 11:13 PM
In theory you could get level 3 or 4 on a step sequence with a fall, assuming you met the criteria for all the features before and/or after the fall. More likely to happen with a fall at the end of the step sequence than a fall in the middle of the sequence.

E.g., when Patrick Chan fell in his step sequence at 2010 Skate Canada, it was called as level 2. At other competitions that season it was level 4.

leafygreens
09-24-2012, 05:11 PM
Yes protests are allowed but they really should be done before the presentations. Because results are only provisional until the presentations. After the presentation the results stand.

Do you mean the medal ceremony? How would this even be possible, because would the skaters and coaches have access to a detailed score, before the medal ceremony, to make sure they are correct?

Ziggy
09-24-2012, 06:05 PM
How would this even be possible, because would the skaters and coaches have access to a detailed score, before the medal ceremony, to make sure they are correct?

The journalists have access to the protocols straight away (after each skater's performance) so of course that skaters and coaches do as well.

Aussie Willy
09-24-2012, 10:49 PM
Do you mean the medal ceremony? How would this even be possible, because would the skaters and coaches have access to a detailed score, before the medal ceremony, to make sure they are correct?
Yes before the medal ceremony. The skaters can see the scores as they appear like we do but I don't think they get access to the protocols. Those are not usually printed off and uploaded until after the event. So I wouldn't assume skaters and coaches have access to them just because the commentators do. Unless there is someone here who has worked at a major event and can give us an insight.

I know with our competitions skaters don't get to see them until after they have been posted on the website and that is after the competition is over and medals have been presented.

Also Technical Controllers and Referees go through them and sign them off before the presentations.

Spazactaz
09-24-2012, 10:58 PM
^Last time I competed at nationals, there was a computer near where you went on the ice and you were able to see your protocols immediately after you skated.

Aussie Willy
09-24-2012, 11:49 PM
Thanks Spaz. Was that the full protocol with all the judges scores? Just interested in what they showed you.

Spazactaz
09-25-2012, 04:08 AM
Yup, the same thing that gets posted after the event.

5Ali3
09-25-2012, 06:04 AM
Are protests allowed? (genuinely curious)So-called "field of play" decisions, such as levels or "falls," can not be protested. More straight-forward applications of rules, such as what element was performed or whether the correct scale-of-values were used, are considered "human errors" and can be protested, but only by the skater/team themselves or their credentialed coach prior to the presentation of awards. For example, if the skater did a 3A and the protocol reads 2A, that can be protested. Time bonus is typically protested when it doesn't appear on the protocol at all; I've only seen one successful protest of when the time bonus kicked in (i.e., was element 6 before or after the halfway mark?) and it involved the final spot on an Olympic team (coach was correct; skater deserved the time bonus, although it did not make a difference in the final standings once the entire flight had skated).

Two keys are:
1) "prior to the presentation of awards," which can be difficult at a Regional or Sectional championships in which the protocols are (generally) not immediately accessible to competitors the way that they are at U.S./Canadian Nationals and most major internationals
2) "only by the skater or coach," not by the coach of another skater in the group. The tricky part here is that the technical panel (TS, ATS, TC, Data, referee) can also raise questions after the event is finished/before awards are presented... so if you're the technical controller for a given event and the coach of a competitor catches you in the line for the bathroom and shoves the protocol under your nose to prove that another skater got credit for two 3-jump combinations when they're only allowed to do one 3-jump combination: what do you do? The other coach can't file a formal protest, but now you know, and you're eligible to initiate a protest as the TC.

ETA: post-event error protocol for USFSA competitions (http://www.usfsa.org/content/techpanelprotocol.pdf)