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2sk8
09-19-2012, 12:48 AM
"You must spread some reputation around before giving it to n*ice mom again." :)

and, breakfast club, completely agree with you about Armin, but not about the "knocking it out of the park in Omaha" comment.

Most of these comments aren't focused on USFS did it WRONG in SLC, as in Suzy should have gone instead of Sally though we could all differ on this or that choice, but on how more developmental opportunities can be provided.

To quite n*ice mom, "These senior level skaters that are not Olympic contenders are of value to our sport." Well, at least some of us think they are, and believe they should have some opportunities beyond Liberty for the 15th time.

On the payment issue, I may have an unpopular viewpoint - athletes don't start out on a level playing field in preparations anyway. Factors include ice time, travel time, parental commitment, coaching quality, injuries...many more, including money. I'm not sure why being willing to pay your own way - or seek funding from sponsors or family/friends to do it - is any more of an "unfair" advantage than any of the other factors.

Ziggy
09-19-2012, 02:06 AM
Re: talk about paying your own way to an international competition... shouldn't these opportunities should be based on merit not personal financial situation?

If nobody is sent to an international event, nobody is benefitting from that opportunity, merit or not.

USFS's budget is limited and within that budget, skaters are selected on merit. But it only goes as far.


There are already too many financial pressures on most skaters just to make ends meet in a very expensive sport. Now add the expense of sending yourself to an international too to get an edge over your competitors? That would put the ones from wealthy families or lucky to have benefactors at a really unfair advantage.

The wealthy skaters already have a huge advantage, being able to access much more resources.

Figure skating is a sport that only wealthy people really have access to. At least in the US.

Sylvia
09-19-2012, 04:19 AM
Article on USC Annenberg School for Communications Digital News site - "Neon Tommy"

Will The United States Ever Have A Breakout Senior Figure Skater?

http://www.neontommy.com/news/2012/09/united-states-breakout-senior-figure-skater#.UFcLlh5QWqI.twitter
I found the headline of this article/editorial to be misleading but I assume it wasn't the writer's choice.

A few corrections/clarifications to the article/editorial, plus some comments:

... there are limits to the number of entrants per country (based on World Championship placements) and per event (ten skaters/teams per discipline).
The current limit is eight pair and dance teams per Grand Prix event.


In order to select which U.S. or Canada venue would host the event, numerous clubs applied to the International Skating Union.
The U.S. clubs had to apply to host the Senior B through U.S. Figure Skating, not the ISU.


For U.S. men, this was a wonderful opportunity to showcase some who've never had the opportunity to participate in the Grand Prix. But why send skaters with some international experience when the U.S. has so many men who never get any international opportunities? Where were Scott Dyer and Sean Rabbitt? One could argue that the goal was a solid set of medals for the U.S. (and the U.S. men did sweep the medal podium), but who is to say that Dyer or Rabbitt or any other untested talent wouldn't have done just as well?
Scott Dyer is listed among the senior level men in USFS' International Selection Pool (ISP) for placing 10th at 2012 Nationals (his sole international experience was at the Novice level several years ago), as is Jonathan Cassar (11th at Nationals), Grant Hochstein (12th), Brandon Mroz (14th), Alexander Johnson (15th), and Philip Warren (3rd in Junior). Of this group, Johnson and Warren have yet to compete in a senior international. Sean Rabbitt is not listed in the ISP.


Why not give the chance to someone who doesn't have the opportunity? How about freeing up some room at the Junior Grand Prix level by sending a veteran of that series (perhaps Vanessa Lam) to Senior B's and rewarding a deserving junior with one of those slots?
U.S. JGP age-eligible Senior ladies (such as Lam) often prefer the opportunity of getting an ISU Season Best score at a JGP, along with the possibility of a second assignment if they place well enough in their first, rather than competing at a Senior B where they have to place in the top 5 to receive the same number of ISU ranking points and no SB score. However, I do think that Lam is worthy to be sent out to a Senior B despite her 4th place finish in her JGP last month.


It's worth noting that the U.S. has 13 young women up for consideration for the two or three spots at each of seven events, and while some of these ladies received two assignments, some received none.
10 of these 13 ladies have been assigned to at least one JGP.


My point is, even though I love skaters like Max Aaron (and was quite disappointed to see him miss out on the Grand Prix), I want to see breakthroughs.
I would say that Max Aaron winning the gold medal in SLC was a breakthrough for him?


... but I know that so many of my favorite up-and-comers miss out on opportunities because the U.S. tends to put most or all of its eggs in one proverbial basket, and that's not necessarily the way to produce long-term success.
17 different men (16 have competed as 1 was a late withdrawal due to injury) and 14 different ladies have been assigned to either a Senior B or a JGP so far this season by USFS -- that's not too shabby.

n*ice mom
09-19-2012, 04:33 AM
On the payment issue, I may have an unpopular viewpoint - athletes don't start out on a level playing field in preparations anyway. Factors include ice time, travel time, parental commitment, coaching quality, injuries...many more, including money. I'm not sure why being willing to pay your own way - or seek funding from sponsors or family/friends to do it - is any more of an "unfair" advantage than any of the other factors.

Totally agree. And thanks for the love.

jlai
09-19-2012, 04:37 AM
I adore Scott Dyer's skating, but I thought his results this summer were just okay, probably not good enough to be assigned just yet.

I wish US would save the senior B spots for the men without a GP so some of them could have 2 B assignments, and I wish 2 GPs for Josh and a senior B for skaters like Haley Dunne or Siraj, but other than that, I think the US intl assignments this season so far have been reasonable enough.

n*ice mom
09-19-2012, 04:37 AM
I adore Scott Dyer's skating, but I thought his results this summer were just okay, probably not good enough to be assigned just yet.

I wish US would save the senior B spots for the men without a GP so some of them could have 2 B assignments, and I wish 2 GPs for Josh and a senior B for skaters like Haley Dunne or Siraj, but other than that, I think the US intl assignments this season so far have been reasonable enough.

We could probably nit pick about the selections, but I don't see any controversy. jlai...Haley Dunne is a good example of someone I feel should be able to self-fund a senior B. It might not be shabby for the USFS to be sending 31 skaters abroad on their dime, but it takes more than 31 skaters to make a sport.

Braden Overett comes to mind. I got to see him skate in St. Paul, where he finished 14th in Senior Men, and skated a fabulous, memorable program to Pirates of the Caribbean. According to Wikipedia he was on the JGP for two years and then moved up to senior, where in the next 9 years he made it to nationals six times but only received two international competitions: Nebelhorn and Golden Spin of Zagreb. Most people probably wouldn't have stayed in that many years, but I am sure glad he did and believe he made a contribution to the sport then, and now. He might have been an even better competitor if he had the opportunity to do more international competitions; more confidant, self-assured. It would also have enhanced his skill set as a future coach.

TanithandBenFan
09-19-2012, 05:15 AM
For the people that went, were there many locals fans there? Skaters' families and local die-hard fans are going to be there not matter what. Based on reactions to the Senior Men, Pairs, and Dance, I'm guessing that non-local fans would have gone even if Zawadzki, Gold, Davis/Ladwig, and Kriengkrairut/Giulietti-Schmitt (skaters with GPs) weren't there.

There were very few people in the crowd who weren't skaters, coaches, officials, or skaters' families.

Sylvia
09-19-2012, 05:38 AM
6 junior level skaters representing Patinage Qučbec CANADA are entered in the Lombardia Trophy in Italy this weekend according to this post: http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/showthread.php?p=3687769#post3687769

Lombardia Trophy (event page: http://www.sestoiceskatenews.it/1/lombardia_trophy_2012_1719884.html ) is an interclub competition that accepts entries from other countries and falls into the category of a "non-qualifying competition outside of North America" which U.S. skaters can attend if they pay their own way and follow these guidelines set by USFS: http://www.usfsa.org/Athletes.asp?id=320

ETA:

Another example - why doesn't USFS send Collegiate National medalists to international collegiate events like Winter Universiade? Does any one know?
USFS has sent U.S. Collegiate champions or medalists to three Winter Universiades that I know of -- Feb. 2009 in Harbin, China (Amy Nunn, Jason Wong, Andrea Best/Trevor Young in pairs, Snyder/Fischl in dance but they withdrew beforehand, Miami University synchro team); Jan. 2007 in Torino, Italy (Stephanie Roth, Michael Peters, Miami University synchro); and 2003 in Tarvisio, Italy (Angie Lien, who won the silver medal behind Shizuka Arakawa, and Sean Calvillo - archived results page (http://www.fisu.net/medias/fichiers/743.pdf)).

allezfred
09-19-2012, 09:51 AM
USFS's budget is limited

Some national federations would cut off their right arms to have the USFSA's limited budget. :shuffle:

2sk8
09-19-2012, 01:44 PM
ETA:

USFS has sent U.S. Collegiate champions or medalists to three Winter Universiades that I know of -- Feb. 2009 in Harbin, China (Amy Nunn, Jason Wong, Andrea Best/Trevor Young in pairs, Snyder/Fischl in dance but they withdrew beforehand, Miami University synchro team); Jan. 2007 in Torino, Italy (Stephanie Roth, Michael Peters, Miami University synchro); and 2003 in Tarvisio, Italy (Angie Lien, who won the silver medal behind Shizuka Arakawa, and Sean Calvillo - archived results page (http://www.fisu.net/medias/fichiers/743.pdf)).

I am told USFS does not plan to participate in the future, or to otherwise send such Collegiate medalists to international events - source was USFS. Hence, my question - why the change? It does provide additional opportunities for skaters of the type beings discussed here.

barbk
09-19-2012, 04:11 PM
If Canada adds a Senior B, that will significantly expand opportunities along with the US Senior B, and at not too high a cost.

I still don't have a clue as to why one of the US Senior B slots was left empty. Very strange. It has to be cheaper than sending skaters to European Senior Bs.

On the Winter Universidade -- isn't that normally right around US Nationals, such that anyone assigned can't really compete at Nationals? If so, it makes perfect sense why they would choose to not fund that.

mikey
09-19-2012, 05:10 PM
I hate seeing available spots go unfilled, but I am more intrigued by the question of why existing assignments are not spread out to allow a broader range of competitors to participate. On the surface it seems to make sense, but I wonder if it is also, at least in part, based on a potentially false assumption that a skater could "break out" or somehow succeed beyond their current abilities and achievements if only they were given the opportunity to compete at the international level. Does competing internationally make a skater better, or do better skaters get to compete internationally? Is there an element of helicopter parenting involved- the drive to provide my child every opportunity at any cost, whether they've really earned it or not?

analia
09-19-2012, 05:49 PM
I think the bigger question is how to fill up an arena. Ideally a JGP or a Senior B should be able to bring out enough real audience to make it worth the expensive trip. They are obviously not so. A skater doesn't get enough experience skating in front of just friends and family, even if it's supposed to be an international competition with real judges and real scores. It's just absurd.

Technically the competition should be able to fund at least the skater's travel expenses through ad boards, corporate sponsorship and ticket sales. That will be incentives for federations to send more skaters. Small feds are not going to have the money to send their second-tier skaters who don't have a GP to anything.

That being said, I do think it could be a good idea for U.S. skaters to pay for themselves to go to a few selected Senior Bs.

Jayar
09-19-2012, 06:02 PM
I still don't have a clue as to why one of the US Senior B slots was left empty. Very strange. It has to be cheaper than sending skaters to European Senior Bs.


Perhaps nobody from the ISP wanted the extra spot? Or, because of the number of senior men who are deserving of a spot, US Figure Skating instead decided to send an extra man instead of three ladies? Regardless of how much it costs, I am sure that there was a budget for the number of skaters who US Figure Skating could fund, and given that this competition was added rather late in terms of budget preparation, I can see costs being an issue.

2sk8
09-19-2012, 06:16 PM
On the Winter Universidade -- isn't that normally right around US Nationals, such that anyone assigned can't really compete at Nationals? If so, it makes perfect sense why they would choose to not fund that.

There are two different "categories" of skaters under discussion here, it seems. 1 - the potential "breakout" from the article title; 2 - Senior/college age skaters who have been to Nationals a few times, Sectionals a lot, presumably have some value to the sport, and have no opportunities encouraging them to continue. (I'm sure others could define this better.)

Many in the second category may not go to Nationals, likely will make it to Sectionals, so why preclude them the opportunity?


Is there an element of helicopter parenting involved- the drive to provide my child every opportunity at any cost, whether they've really earned it or not?

I would think most Senior level skaters (& college students) who continue to skate are past the point of "helicopter parenting" in skating! And, what opportunities are they not "earning" - it's not like taking away Oly spots, and in many cases, it is events and spots that are not being used at all.

Remember, there are events where these US skaters are not PERMITTED to enter & USFS chooses not to participate, be it funding or whatever. Those lost chances are lost Developmental chances for some & lost Incentives to stay in the sport for others.

I happen to think there is a real value to both - and, we need to recall that many of these "cusp" skaters in the US are stronger than the best skaters from many other countries. No offense to any other Fed, but how discouraging for the skater to train with skaters representing other countries, who can do less than they do, watch them get international assignments, and know their own most meaningful event might be Liberty for the 15th time.

Hoping for some opportunities and incentives is not a bad thing in that context.