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mgobluegirl
02-04-2013, 08:45 PM
I'd love for Adam to (a) get well soon and (b) keep his current Incredibles LP into the Olympic season. He can ride that one all the way to Sochi, IMO.

I love Adam and I also hope he gets well soon. I was glad to see him skate well and do well at nationals. However, maybe I'm in the minority here, but I thought his Incredibles FS was the most boring material he's put out there in years.

Skittl1321
02-04-2013, 09:19 PM
So there could be an official change midyear in the way that technical panels interpret specific features, specific errors, etc. That's probably what's under discussion here.

IIRC, this was not a minor clarification to the technical panel, it may have been a chance from last year to this year- but it was in effect all season, he change the program late in the season. It was that the solo change foot spin has to be a sit or a camel and he was going to do an upright spin for his change foot.

To me, if a message board poster can catch it, it is kind of sad a coach didn't (this thread- see the posts about the send off show. Also interesting to go back in this thread and see people's predictions for nationals, especially how they mention Max Aaron.)


(Note: I previously thought the error was that he was doing a flying upright, I said that in a previous post. I was wrong there, I rewatched the program and he didn't do a flying upright, but a change foot upright. The icenetwork article confused me because he mentioned a flying upright in a quote, but just in reference to not doing it because some people don't like them.)

Catherine M
02-04-2013, 09:20 PM
I love Adam and I also hope he gets well soon. I was glad to see him skate well and do well at nationals. However, maybe I'm in the minority here, but I thought his Incredibles FS was the most boring material he's put out there in years.

You are not alone as I thought Adam's freeskate was pretty meh overall when I saw it at Nationals. It just didn't pop out at me like some of the others did. Not really sure what was missing but it for sure didn't go on my "wow, I love this program" list that I usually compile at the end of an event that I've witnessed in person.

Skittl1321
02-04-2013, 09:28 PM
I thought it was fun, but a little 'slow' - if that makes sense. Too many pauses in the skating.

I love Adam though, so as long as he does his gorgeous lutz, I'm happy. (Wish he'd grow his hair out again.)

Marco
02-05-2013, 03:33 AM
Dornbush replaces Rippon at Four Continents - press release: http://www.usfsa.org/Story.asp?id=48962&type=media
"Rippon, who placed fifth at the 2013 U.S. Championships, sustained an ankle injury on Saturday. He is expected to make a full recovery."

Although I love Dornbush's skating, I have to say he is extremely lucky to make 4CCs two seasons in a row.

4rkidz
02-05-2013, 04:19 AM
Alexander Johnson (7th at Nationals) and Brandon Mroz (9th) are on the entry list for the Challenge Cup in The Hague, Netherlands (Feb. 21-24) - see event thread started in the Kiss and Cry forum. This was be Johnson's first senior international since 2009 Finlandia Trophy!

That is good news, especially with regards to Alexander Johnson, I think he is a really special skater and could become world class.. he really has the full package ..

gkelly
02-05-2013, 05:02 AM
IIRC, this was not a minor clarification to the technical panel, it may have been a chance from last year to this year- but it was in effect all season, he change the program late in the season. It was that the solo change foot spin has to be a sit or a camel and he was going to do an upright spin for his change foot.

I think there's some confusion here. (And some brief confusion in the Abbott/Sato camp)

Read the IceNetwork article again: http://web.icenetwork.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20130125&content_id=41165246&vkey=ice_news

There was no recent change in the rules about what spins are allowed.

The requirement for the change-foot spin in the men's short program has been the same since 1995: either camel or sit position with one change of foot.

There has also always been a flying spin required in the short program. Since 1989, for seniors, the position has not been specified. Skaters almost always chose to do either flying camel or some flavor of flying sit.

A lot of men had a favorite spin position and did either both the flying spin and the change-foot spin in sit position or (less commonly) both in camel position. Plenty also did sit for one and camel for the other.

A couple of years ago there was a rule change, introduced in the summer in the usual way, which specified that senior men could no longer use the same basic position for both the flying spin and the change-foot spin in the short program.

After that change, a number of men had to stop doing both flying sit and change-foot sit. Some of them chose to do camel for one of those spins. A handful, Abbott among them, decided to do flying upright instead, which is something that had not been used before the different-positions rule was introduced although it would have been allowed.

Now look at the article again. I can see why it would be confusing and suggest that the rules had just changed if you read it quickly and weren't familiar with the rules, but if you do know what the rules have been and what Abbott had been doing, it makes sense.

Remember, last year Abbott had been doing sit-change sit and flying upright.


"During the Grand Prix season, I wasn't getting the levels on my spins," Abbott said. "I was doing the camel-change-camel, and I'm not very flexible, because I've had tons of back issues, and so I was getting Level 2, which is not acceptable."

At the beginning of this season, he chose to change his layout to camel-change camel and flying sit, which is also legal. But he wasn't earning as high levels as he wanted.


When Abbott and Sato got down to training at the Detroit Skating Club, their first thought was swap out the spin and to repeat two of the skater's spins from last season, including a flying upright and a sit-change-sit spin.

So they considered going back to last year's also-legal layout.


"But a lot of people don't like the flying upright spin, so we decided to do a change-foot upright spin, which was actually very nice," Abbott said.

Abbott and Sato decided, after the Grand Prix, to try something else -- change-foot upright and flying sit. That meets the requirement that the two spins be in different positions. But it does not meet the requirement -- which has not changed since 1995 -- that the change-foot spin in the senior men's short program be either camel or sit. Whoops!


That's where things went awry.

"The rules say I can't do a change-foot upright spin," he said. "The change-foot spin has to be in either a camel or a sit spin position. We didn't realize that until today."

It was totally Abbott and Sato's mistake. Evidently they were busy worrying about the levels and the relatively recent can't-repeat-position rule and forgot to check what the actual rules required.


Luckily, a sharp-eyed IJS rules aficionado spotted the problem during Abbott's run-through at his first practice on Thursday. So, Abbott is back to doing the flying upright and sit-change-sit.

"It will be the same spins I did last year," Abbott said. "It's a little bit of a mess, but I think it's an easy fix."

He tried to change things up this year from what he had been doing last year, but in the fall events he ran into trouble getting the levels. So he tried to change again, this time choosing a layout that didn't meet the requirements. When someone pointed that out to him, he went back to last year's layout.

Note that all these changes since last year are decisions that Abbott and Sato made, not changes that the ISU made. The short program spin rules have not changed in the last year.

Marco
02-05-2013, 06:41 AM
This is sad. I am a casual fan and I realised that it was illegal upon my first viewing when he did the short program at one of those shows leading up to Nationals. I pointed it out in one of the threads here and was given to understand that the upright change upright was just for the show.

How much does Abbott pay Sato for her to not even realize something like that? (then again, back in 2005, Kwan didn't realize there was a 3 second rule for the positions in the spiral sequence to count).

aftershocks
02-05-2013, 07:21 AM
You are not alone as I thought Adam's freeskate was pretty meh overall when I saw it at Nationals. It just didn't pop out at me like some of the others did. Not really sure what was missing but it for sure didn't go on my "wow, I love this program" list that I usually compile at the end of an event that I've witnessed in person.


I thought it was fun, but a little 'slow' - if that makes sense. Too many pauses in the skating.

I love Adam though, so as long as he does his gorgeous lutz, I'm happy. (Wish he'd grow his hair out again.)

Well I enjoyed the Incredibles fp, because Adam was enjoying it. :) Plus, I love his new costume. Color looks good on Adam. His original fp outfit earlier in the season was too drab and muted, and he didn't seem comfortable with the program yet. Adam's fp was not an easy program for him because it is a completely different style, and he was also adjusting to a new coach and a new training environment. The music is different for Adam too, and while learning the program he was still in the process of re-working his jump technique, in particular on the 3-axel.

After trial runs of the fp on the GP circuit, it's obvious that Adam and his coach got together with his choreographer, Michael Seibert, to tweak and fine-tune his fp. The changes they made work, and most importantly Adam skated it at Nationals with more conviction and enthusiasm.

misskarne
02-05-2013, 11:01 AM
Note that all these changes since last year are decisions that Abbott and Sato made, not changes that the ISU made. The short program spin rules have not changed in the last year.

That's pretty poor, to not even bother checking the rules.



How much does Abbott pay Sato for her to not even realize something like that? (then again, back in 2005, Kwan didn't realize there was a 3 second rule for the positions in the spiral sequence to count).

It's not just the coach's responsibility. Abbott should have known the rules or at least checked himself.

Sylvia
02-05-2013, 04:24 PM
This is sad. I am a casual fan and I realised that it was illegal upon my first viewing when he did the short program at one of those shows leading up to Nationals. I pointed it out in one of the threads here and was given to understand that the upright change upright was just for the show.
Props to you, Marco! :respec: It was my assumption only in that thread that Team Abbott knew which spins were required for the SP, so I turned out to be wrong.


After trial runs of the fp on the GP circuit, it's obvious that Adam and his coach got together with his choreographer, Michael Seibert, to tweak and fine-tune his fp. The changes they made work, and most importantly Adam skated it at Nationals with more conviction and enthusiasm.
"Obvious" is an assumption on your part. Though I agree with the "skated ... with more conviction and enthusiasm," I won't be surprised if Rippon returns to his classical roots next season.

Jayar
02-05-2013, 05:25 PM
That's pretty poor, to not even bother checking the rules.



It's not just the coach's responsibility. Abbott should have known the rules or at least checked himself.

One of the risks when you self choreograph.

gkelly
02-05-2013, 05:50 PM
I've certainly seen coaches make that kind of mistake before. Often they have a lot of skaters at various levels and may not have had anyone at the same level and discipline recently, with the possibility of a rule change during the interim.

Early-season competitions are good opportunities to discover these kinds of mistakes. Making a change to program content in the middle of a season is risky, especially without looking up the actual rules.

Yes, there is a lot for coaches to keep track of, including rule changes at various levels each spring/summer and occasional clarifications during the year. IJS does tend to make things more complicated.

Skaters each have only one level and discipline to worry about. Not all skaters are ready to take that kind of responsibility for their own program content, but an experienced senior competitor probably should be.

Skittl1321
02-05-2013, 05:56 PM
I didn't think the mistake was such a big deal (but was surprised a message board poster would catch what a coach didn't) until it was explained the rule had been in place since 1995! Keeping up with the year to year rule changes can be tough, and I know coaches don't catch everything (which is why they have tech specialists review programs.)

aftershocks
02-06-2013, 08:56 AM
...

"Obvious" is an assumption on your part. Though I agree with the "skated ... with more conviction and enthusiasm," I won't be surprised if Rippon returns to his classical roots next season.

Actually, on the NBC broadcast (as I recall) Scott H referred to the fact that Michael Siebert had fine-tuned the Incredibles program with Adam shortly after his last GP event. I heard it, but I don't have it on tape, and I don't remember Scott's exact words.

In any case, the below vids make it obvious that the program was tweaked, which actually is not an unusual occurrence for most skaters, their coaches and choreographers to do over the course of a season. :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcAOJsCQ3_E Cup of China Incredibles


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=guzEfgtvd2w Nationals Incredibles