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Sylvia
01-30-2013, 11:20 PM
He has a compressed disk. I have never heard he had a broken back and I went back and read his bio and only the compressed disk was mentioned.
Abbott's Team USA bio on IN mentions that he "Overcame a stress fracture in his lower back during the summer of 2003."

In Abbott's own words from a Jan. 2004 pre-Nationals interview (he placed 7th in Junior at 2004 Nationals):

"I had a pars fracture in my L5 vertebra. On your back bones there are two little "wings" that stick out on either side of the bone and basically I cracked both of them. One of them cracked all the way through and the other one was just partially cracked.

I was off the ice for about 15 weeks. I did a lot of off-ice conditioning. Fortunately I was able to stay on the ice -- I was just not allowed to jump or spin"

Skittl1321
01-31-2013, 12:30 AM
You're leaving out how he skated. Skaters aren't robots that skate exactly the same from day to day. Aaron was really "on" for the LP and it was reflected in the PCS, as it should be.



If you read my posts you'll see that I absolutely agree he deserved the PCS, and think a conspiracy to have him win is just absurd. I was just wondering if the huge jump in PCS from short to long could be explained by different judges judge differently, since many others don't think it was deserved- clearly, my theory there doesn't work. But I still think he deserved the score. I wasn't there, but watching on TV I thought he had fabulous style. He wasn't a jump robot. Possibly if he was more well known, he would have been scored even better in the short, maybe the actual explanation in the jump is he was held down the previous day...

Ziggy
01-31-2013, 03:47 AM
My husband , who knows very little about figure skating, watched the men's long with me. He loved Max!! He said that it was about time that we have a men's champion who actually skates like a man. My 27 yr. old son agrees!

Are you married to Elvis Stojko by any chance?


just because Max isn't quite on par in that regard, doesn't make him automatically bad

What makes him bad is shallow edges. The whole point of good skating skills is that you generate speed easily. One long push and away you go. Aaron has to scrape a lot of cross-overs to generate speed.

What makes him bad is poor posture. He slouches throughout.

What makes him bad is ignoring the music. You choose a piece of music. A piece of music has a certain rhythm. You move to that rhythm. Simple. He doesn't.

What makes him bad is ignoring the music. You choose a piece of music. A piece of music has certain character. You move in a way which reflects the character of the music. He does that a little better now than in the past thanks to Camerlengo but is still really lacking in this area.

Then there's also things like layout of elements on ice, transitions, etc. etc.

If you actually considered all of the above - which judges should - when giving out PCS, there is absolutely now way he'd ever get high 6s or 8s.

But back in the real world, PCS are tied to the jumps performed.

He is a great jumper, that is something nobody can deny. And yes if he skates well, he can place much better than Abbott or Rippon could (I would send Miner and Farris to Worlds though as Marco said).

But his PCS abilities are not good by any stretch of the imagination.


He's young, and has plenty of time to develop the other pieces.

Under Tom Zakrajsek?

Aaron already plans to do 5 quads next season (two in SP and three in FS) and that's the direction he will go into, resulting in multiple injuries that Zakrajsek will ignore and nobody in his team will give a rat's ass about the presentation. That's a much more likely scenario. :P

lahaa968
01-31-2013, 04:35 AM
Based on the circumstances, Aaron absolutely deserved to win Nationals. Realistically, I don't think he will get anywhere near 79 in PCS at Worlds like he did at Nationals. The jumping and speed was phenomenal, but if you take out all the jumps and spins all there is left are sequences of him snapping his fingers :P

His presentation abilities will develop with time. He already creates excitement and power with his skating, now all he needs to do is add some choreographic content and get some decent costumes (black spandex body suit for the SP? Blasphemous. Same to the fingerless gloves for the FP:scream:)

His best shot at making a strong impression at Worlds is skating two clean programs, landing all the quads. Good luck to him. Making Top 10 is possible, but I think Top 12 is more likely.

pinky166
01-31-2013, 05:26 AM
Farris may have been given more generous PCS and the edge calls overlooked, doing enough to maybe put him in 2nd, if he had won the JGPF in December and come in with that momentum. I know he had an allergic reaction and was doped on Benadryl during his FS, and even so he didn't have a meltdown, but it's more that, Farris' last performance coming into Nationals was the JGPF where he had just an okay FS and was beaten by Kovtun by 11 points. He was sort of the pleasant surprise to the competition and really stepped it up at Nationals. He had a good fall season, but competing on the JGP, I tend to think it's easy to go unnoticed unless you are stellar. When he had the great FS in Lake Placid and landed the nice quad, there was some buzz, but then while he was good at his second JGP and the JGPF, he was scoring comparably to the other guys in that fairly large list and he wasn't his best at those events, so he got tossed into a a potential guy to add to the mix, but wasn't really drawing much attention like Ross had after winning bronze and beating Fernandez at NHK and even Max who had skated very strong technical programs at sectionals and his senior Bs.

While I agree Josh is superior to max in most every area despite being three years younger, the reality is his quad is just not that consistent yet, and Max's is, so it makes sense that Max should go to Worlds. Yes, it's true Josh could build up points on spins and maybe get slightly better PCS, but in the end, Max's technical content will more than make up for that if he delivers his programs as planned. Josh could also tweak his FS layout to milk more points out of it if he's really gunning for a Sochi spot now, like by putting 2 combos in the 2nd half of his skate, replace the second 3f with a 3lz to avoid losing points on a potential edge call, and switch the 3f-2t-2lo to 3f-1/2lo-3s and then do a 2a at the end in the place where the 3s is currently. Unless next season he plans to do two quads in his FS in which case the current layout would be fine. He's a great talent with a bright future, but I do understand why he wound up 4th even after such a great FS - if the quad isn't a sure thing, most guys try to compensate by backloading their combos and doing 3-1/2 lo-3 combos as the 3 jump combinations which opens up jumping passes to do a 2a or two.

Another thing, while Farris' artistry is good considering his age, he's barely 18 and skates like it, there's lots of artistic potential and he is improving steadily in that area, but his international PCS are on par with the likes of Dornbush and Rippon, not even quite Miner level, so he doesn't have the Jeremy advantage in that regard yet. Plus rushing him out to senior Worlds after, from what I can tell, the USFS talked him into staying on the JGP this season, it would just be confusing and deliver mixed messages. Plus I also wonder if there's maybe some fear that if Farris were to go to Worlds and wind up beating Miner there, if that could hurt Miner's reputation in a way, just where Ross and Joshua are kind of similar skaters in that they are similar in their classical style, build, workhorse mentality, well-rounded skating, as well as being a bit white bread for now. Ross is the go-to guy and you don't want some 18 year old hurting that reputation of his, with Jeremy, Ross and Jeremy are such different types of skaters, and the same goes for Max and Ross, so I wouldn't imagine the same kind of fears would exist. So Max really is the best choice for Worlds given how Jeremy skated.

carriecmu0503
01-31-2013, 05:50 AM
I still don't get why Jeremy didn't do a 3 jump combo. Was he not planning to do one? He left 2 points on the table by not adding another double toe onto one of his combinations. That 2 points for the omitted double toe would have given him enough for second place and the world team. Jeremy Abbott is sitting at home instead of going to worlds because he forgot/ didn't plan to do a double toe. That's crazy.

Vagabond
01-31-2013, 05:58 AM
I still don't get why Jeremy didn't do a 3 jump combo. Was he not planning to do one?.

He was planning to do a triple lutz+triple toe loop+ double loop followed by a triple loop and a triple salchow after the step sequence. Instead, he did a triple lutz + triple toe loop, a double loop + double toe loop and a double salchow after the salchow.

http://www.usfigureskating.org/leaderboard/results/2013/68390/results.html

Sylvia
01-31-2013, 06:01 AM
I believe Abbott's planned jumps were not updated with the new jump layout for Nationals:

Planned Jumps (GP season) --> Executed Jumps (Nationals)
Triple Lutz --> Quad Toeloop (under-rotated)
Quad Toeloop --> Triple Lutz
Triple Flip --> Triple Axel + Double Toeloop
Triple Axel --> Triple Axel
Triple Axel+Double Toeloop --> Triple Flip
Triple Lutz+Triple Toeloop+Double Loop --> Triple Lutz + Triple Toeloop
Triple Loop --> Double Loop + Double Toeloop
Triple Salchow --> Double Salchow

ETA: Here are the jumps he did in his last practice run through the day before the FS:
4T fall, 3Lz, 3A2T, stopped for a bit, 3A, 3F, 3Lz2T2T, 2Lo, 3S2T

He mentioned the doubled Salchow in his press conference but not the doubled loop that proved costly as well.

Marco
01-31-2013, 06:33 AM
I never said his basics were better than Miner, Abbott, or Farris, because I agree with you that they aren't, but those guys all have very good basics skating, so just because Max isn't quite on par in that regard, doesn't make him automatically bad. He won because he landed 3 clean quads in the event and had a backloaded program, while Miner landed 1 clean and 1 under-rotated quad and popped open an intended 3a and had a pretty front loaded program, Abbott under-rotated and fell on his only quad attempt, doubled two jumps, and didn't do a 3-jump combo, and Farris fell on his one quad attempt, lost a level on a spin and step sequence, and got two edge calls on his flips. In his FS he actually edged Farris out on components anyways, but Ross and Jeremy were way ahead in PCS so even the judges don't consider Max's presentation to be on par with those two, even when he had a clean skate and they made mistakes.

Basically, I feel like Max isn't getting the credit he deserves. No, he's not a lyrical artsy skater like Jeremy, nor does he have the "nice normal guy" charm of Ross, or the lines, looks, and endearing boyishness of Farris, but, that's okay. Yes, he used to play Hockey. Yes, he's short and compact, his legs especially. Yes, his programs are jump centric instead of pieces of art, and, yes, his looks might not appeal to everyone (I personally find him very cute though), but the technical side of figure skating is more important than ever in the men's even and Max has that in spades. Plus he's young and hardworking and driven. I think he's a great choice for Worlds and really do think he'll make the top 10 comfortably if he can skate like he usually does, just on the basis of his technical abilities. And his PCS won't be awful, they won't be as high as at Nationals but he'll get high 6s or low 7s most likely, which is what the likes of Dornbush, Farris, and Rippon usually get at international events so if you're arguing one of them should be going to Worlds instead, the PCS buffer would likely be slim to nonexistant for any of them, so it once again comes down to TES, and Max beats every guy in the US on the basis of TES so there you go.

Well, not really. He won because his PCS relative to other competitors was not right. Whether he makes a better bet at top ten at Worlds is another question really.

Marco
01-31-2013, 06:41 AM
I honestly think that Tom Z should function solely as a jump specialist. He can clearly teach skaters to jump well and consistently, with good technique, and to give credit where credit is due, a lot of those top guys at US nationals learned their jumps from him. He just shouldn't be driving the coaching team, and shouldn't be allowed anywhere near choreography and general packaging of a skater.

Free Max Aaron!

Well, Flatt's flip / lutz technique absolutely hurt my soul. Aaron's and Bradley's jumps didn't have the same nice form as those of Abbott's, Mroz' and Farris'.

Marco
01-31-2013, 07:40 AM
Are you married to Elvis Stojko by any chance?

:rofl::rofl::rofl:


What makes him bad is shallow edges. The whole point of good skating skills is that you generate speed easily. One long push and away you go. Aaron has to scrape a lot of cross-overs to generate speed.

What makes him bad is poor posture. He slouches throughout.

What makes him bad is ignoring the music. You choose a piece of music. A piece of music has a certain rhythm. You move to that rhythm. Simple. He doesn't.

What makes him bad is ignoring the music. You choose a piece of music. A piece of music has certain character. You move in a way which reflects the character of the music. He does that a little better now than in the past thanks to Camerlengo but is still really lacking in this area.

Then there's also things like layout of elements on ice, transitions, etc. etc.

If you actually considered all of the above - which judges should - when giving out PCS, there is absolutely now way he'd ever get high 6s or 8s.

But back in the real world, PCS are tied to the jumps performed.

I watched the skate after I knew he won and got comparable PCS to Farris. I kept looking for him to do something with his blades. There's not much blade work in the program at all except during the steps and even so, the blade work was not well done. There's little one foot skating or change in direction. He was fast but it was more like bullying across the ice instead of the way a Gordeeva or Kwan would move.

His choreographer really needs to find ways to showcase his strength in PCS (or at least hide his weaknesses) instead of just having too many finger snapping moments.



Under Tom Zakrajsek?

Aaron already plans to do 5 quads next season (two in SP and three in FS) and that's the direction he will go into, resulting in multiple injuries that Zakrajsek will ignore and nobody in his team will give a rat's ass about the presentation. That's a much more likely scenario. :P

Agreed.

Marco
01-31-2013, 08:11 AM
Another thing, while Farris' artistry is good considering his age, he's barely 18 and skates like it, there's lots of artistic potential and he is improving steadily in that area, but his international PCS are on par with the likes of Dornbush and Rippon, not even quite Miner level, so he doesn't have the Jeremy advantage in that regard yet. Plus rushing him out to senior Worlds after, from what I can tell, the USFS talked him into staying on the JGP this season, it would just be confusing and deliver mixed messages.

Except Farris was getting those PCS in junior competitions which generally give out lower PCS. I will bet if you put him up against the other guys at the same senior international competition, his PCS will come out ahead for simiar performances.

And your second point is exactly why I think USFS was stupid to hold him back in international juniors this season. They thought it's already too crowded on top and Farris and Brown are better served staying in juniors. However, besides Miner, none of the big boys have consistently delivered solid performances this season. Their bet on Dornbush (and Mroz a few years back) just didn't materialize like they thought it would and now it's too late to consider Farris because he didn't even do senior GPs. At least Aaron did some senior internationals.

Still, I think Farris and Miner would serve US men's team well with keeping the 2 spots and a great developmental plan for next season and especially for post-Sochi.

MarieM
01-31-2013, 09:06 AM
I think all nations should thank those judges to have selected for the second time the worst possible winner. Or maybe it's a russian's conspiracy to ensure the win in Sochi ah ! :P -in case noone understood : I'm joking.

VarBar
01-31-2013, 11:20 AM
What makes him bad is shallow edges. The whole point of good skating skills is that you generate speed easily. One long push and away you go. Aaron has to scrape a lot of cross-overs to generate speed.

Fernandez too needs quite a few cross-overs to generate speed and he doesn't even generate the same amount of speed as Aaron. Does Fernandez have deep edges as opposed to Aaron's shallow edges? Is Fernandez a better skater than Aaron or just a better packaged skater?

But I got to say Fernandez is quite a phenom in figure skating because he moved from a PC mark of 82 at the GPF up to a PC mark of 89 at Europeans in a matter of just six weeks or so while his technical score was pretty much the same at both competitions. If he keeps up the good work at this pace, I can easily see him beating the likes of Chan and Takahashi next season.;)

If Max Aaron was overscored on the components at Nationals and I suppose he was, does anyone honestly believe Jeremy Abbott would score internationally as high as 88+ for his LP performance at the Omaha Championships?

As far as Ross Miner goes:
NHK this season - Free Skate TES - 86.74; PCS - 75.22.
2013 Nationals - TES - 86.08; PCS - 84.22

Assuming the US judges were consistent in inflating Miner's PC and Aaron's PC by a similar number of points, one could easily conclude international judges might well give Max a PC mark of around 71 for his free skate at Nationals and why wouldn't they so long as a slow and messy Verner who popped just about all his jumps at Europeans could score around 71 on the program components?

Re Elvis Stojko, is he by any chance the guy who won 3 world titles and 2 Olympic silver medals back in the nineties? If it's him, what's so bad about being married to Stojko? He is a big name in figure skating.

olympic
01-31-2013, 12:52 PM
Just rewatched Ross and Max's LPs. Notice that neither did a 3 jump combo. Would they consider doing them after the 1st 3x? 3x-2t-2t after their 1st 3x respectively. They are going to need every point available to them at Worlds.