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spikydurian
11-27-2012, 10:49 AM
Max and Alexander sound like two sensible kids who know what they want and how to get there. Hope they do well in the Nationals.

dinakt
11-27-2012, 01:12 PM
I just watched the Midwesterns. Max A. will not get PCS Internationally; it'll be the case of Voronov, or worse. There's simply not enough in- between jumps. It's great that he'll be working with Camerlengo, but I imagine it should be not the matter of weeks, but rather months and years.
Alex Johnson, to me, is very enjoyable, "my kind of skater". But isn't he coached by Dickson? That's it right there.
Ross- I like him a little more every year ( and it's starting to add up to liking him quite a bit). Awesome NHK LP.
Richard D. has great programs this year. Quite on par, IMO, with "Sherlock", if performed well.
Jeremy, to me, is on a different plane altogether. I know skating's a sport, but Jeremy elevates it. His value extends so far beyond numbers, that I'd like him to make a National team as long as he is capable of putting a somewhat decent jump content in. His PCS will carry him as long as he is not falling apart completely. Sometimes I wonder if he should forget a quad and revert to 2009 jump content. That will not win him Gold at Worlds, but might put him higher than a flawed program with a quad.
Farris might surprise; he has no weakness.
If I had a wish, that would be Jeremy and Ross for Worlds; Richard and Joshua ( +1- Messing? Aaron? Brown? Rippon?) for 4CC ( if 4CC is not too close to Junior Worlds, I don't remember dates by heart).

Vagabond
11-27-2012, 04:10 PM
I just watched the Midwesterns. Max A. will not get PCS Internationally; it'll be the case of Voronov, or worse. There's simply not enough in- between jumps. It's great that he'll be working with Camerlengo, but I imagine it should be not the matter of weeks, but rather months and years.\

Wake up and smell the coffee (or at least look at the results). :)

A comparison of Max Aaron's PCS (SS, TR, PE, CH, IN) at two recent competitions:

Midwestern Sectionals (http://www.usfigureskating.org/leaderboard/results/2013/68388/index.asp):

SP: 7.13, 5.63, 6.56, 6.38, 6.44
FS: 7.56, 6.00, 7.06, 6.75, 6.09

Coupe de Nice (http://nice-baie-des-anges.fr/images/stories/docs-coupe/resultats2012/html/index.htm):

SP: 7.33, 6.92, 7.08, 7.17, 7.33
FS: 7.50, 7.08, 7.25, 7.25, 7.25

:coffee:

aftershocks
11-27-2012, 05:10 PM
Abbott usually scores low 8s while Miner scores mid 7s. That's about 5 points in total PCS difference in the free skate. Between popping jumps and losing spin levels, Abbott's PCS advantage is quickly lost.

It's no good for him to have only one truly great performance per season. In 2009 it was GPF and he was subpar at Nationals and Worlds. In 2010 it was Nationals and he was subpar at Olympics and Worlds. In 2011 it was 4CCs and it meant he didn't make the world team. In 2012 it was Nationals again and he was again subpar at Worlds.

I beg to differ on one of your points: Jeremy was NOT "subpar" at Nationals in 2009. He won his first U.S. National title in 2009, but he did not fare well at Worlds in 2009. In 2010, he skated lights out at Nationals and inexplicably popped jumps in his sp at the Olympics where he could have been the one taking home the gold. He somewhat redeemed himself at Worlds in 2010, coming in 5th (in a reduced field). Then Jeremy had a fairly good GP season in Fall 2010, but at Nationals 2011 he simply was not being shown much respect as a front-runner. Jeremy should have easily been ahead in the sp on the basis of his artistry and skating skills, although Ryan's really fun sp to swing music was a stroke of genius that I think Jeremy was inspired by to eventually create his own fun swing sp for the 2011-2012 season.

In his 2011 fp at Nationals, Jeremy had a great skate going and then seemed to start thinking too much. I wonder how much his confidence was affected by not coming in first in the sp. Oh well, stuff happens the way it happens, and that's a fact. Still, the debate is endless in fs. :)

Here are Jeremy's wonderful 2009 programs at U.S. Nationals. I saw Jeremy's sp live. :) Note that Jeremy had to perform immediately after the favored Evan L in the sp, as if USFS was saying to Jeremy: Show us you can back-up your GPF win. He showed them and then some. Wish Scott's comments could be muted in the below clip. ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gawOg1JXgfQ Jeremy 2009 sp U.S. Nationals
(Jeremy's sp costume was designed by Tess Johnson)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zOXG3c64fg Jeremy 2009 fp U.S. Nationals (toward the end he popped one jump and then tried to add in another triple to make up for it and had a hand down on the landing, so he showed nerves but this was still an excellent skate, in no way "subpar" or he wouldn't have won)

Notice Tom Dickson (choreographer extraordinare) at rinkside with Jere and coach Z

merrywidow
11-27-2012, 05:56 PM
I'm wondering if Marco is confusing Jeremy Abbott with Adam Rippon. Adam is the skater who has such difficulty landing 3 axles. Jeremy can be inconsistent with his jumps but I haven't noticed that it is his triple axles in particular.

Sylvia
11-27-2012, 06:02 PM
Abbott is attempting back-to-back triple Axels in his free skate this season and hasn't landed the second one yet in his two GPs -- I assume that's what Marco meant. (Abbott has landed 3A in both his SPs this season.)

aftershocks
11-27-2012, 06:17 PM
^^ And how's that for Jeremy challenging himself! Still, I wonder if it was the layout and choreo of his fp that made them go with the curved entry on the quad, instead of the straight line entry.

In any case, I think Abbott has very reliable technique on all his jumps, but he too often loses focus during a program. I think it is his mental approach that he needs to examine and refine. I would like to point out though that unfortunately this season it may be Jeremy's physical problems that are hampering him more than his competition nerves and tendency to lose focus.

Marco
11-27-2012, 06:56 PM
Thanks Sylvia.

Marco
11-27-2012, 07:00 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zOXG3c64fg Jeremy 2009 fp U.S. Nationals (toward the end he popped one jump and then tried to add in another triple to make up for it and had a hand down on the landing, so he showed nerves but this was still an excellent skate, in no way "subpar" or he wouldn't have won)

Love this program, but subpar for him, esp. compared to the firey GPF performance.

aftershocks
11-27-2012, 07:15 PM
^^ Still beg to differ. He clearly rocked his sp that year. And even though it was not the best Jeremy skated his 2009 fp, it was most certainly not "subpar" either. He was nervous before his free skate, as he is seen going through a ritual pumping up or calming down with his coach at rinkside. Wish I understood why it is Jeremy hasn't been able to conquer the "nerves" conundrum. I can't imagine what it's like to perform in front of an audience alone on the ice. I guess somewhere inside you've got to really love showing off, or have such a strong connection to the joy of movement and music that the extraneous and negative thoughts fall away.

I understand the butterflies e.g., re speaking in front of an audience. The more comfortable you are with what you are speaking on (and with continual practice), the better it can get. However, I'm sure physical performance is a much different animal re conquering nerves -- especially on slippery ice.

Bookslut
11-27-2012, 07:45 PM
Many folks are suggesting Farris for 4Cs and Junior Worlds. If I understand the current ISU rules, once he skates an international senior competition he cannot compete at a Junior event that year. (And once he competes in two international senior competitions he can never return to juniors.)

Wouldn't skating in 4Cs automatically eliminate his eligibility for Junior Worlds? Or am I missing something?

Sylvia
11-27-2012, 07:52 PM
^^^ I looked up the current ISU Constitution and General Regulations online and didn't see it included/underlined as a new rule, so I don't believe that particular proposal was passed at the ISU Congress this summer? Can anyone confirm?

ETA 2013 competition dates:
Nationals are Jan. 20-27 in Omaha, NE
4CC are Feb. 6-11 in Osaka, JPN
Jr. Worlds are Feb. 25-Mar. 3 in Milan, ITA
Worlds are Mar. 10-17 in London, CAN

aftershocks
11-27-2012, 09:53 PM
Wake up and smell the coffee (or at least look at the results). :)

A comparison of Max Aaron's PCS (SS, TR, PE, CH, IN) at two recent competitions:

Midwestern Sectionals (http://www.usfigureskating.org/leaderboard/results/2013/68388/index.asp):

SP: 7.13, 5.63, 6.56, 6.38, 6.44
FS: 7.56, 6.00, 7.06, 6.75, 6.09

Coupe de Nice (http://nice-baie-des-anges.fr/images/stories/docs-coupe/resultats2012/html/index.htm):

SP: 7.33, 6.92, 7.08, 7.17, 7.33
FS: 7.50, 7.08, 7.25, 7.25, 7.25

:coffee:

Not bad PCS scores for Max, which average mid 6s to low 7s. However, once again, it is difficult to translate judges scores across events, especially when you are dealing with regional competitions and a senior B vs GP senior international events. And even scoring at GP events should not necessarily be compared with Worlds and Olympics scoring where the fields are obviously larger and the competition more difficult.

Since Voronov was mentioned earlier, note that he came in 3rd at CoC in a not so deep field, and 8th at NHK in a much deeper field. Voronov's PCS at his two GPs this season are somewhat lower overall than those of Aaron listed above, but IMO, fairly close. Although at his age, Max has more potential to improve and polish his presentation skills than the veteran, Voronov.

As I mentioned, Aaron's scores are from a regional competition and a senior B event. At a major senior international, Aaron's scores will automatically be much lower, I'd bet, simply due to the newbie factor, and added to that it is hard to be clean in a senior international debut, especially at Worlds. That's why the performances of both Richard Dornbush and Ross Miner at 2011 Worlds were outstanding, albeit largely unrewarded and unheralded. That's figure skating. :judge: :COP: :argue: :drama: :wall: :fragile: :fan21:

misskarne
11-27-2012, 09:54 PM
Many folks are suggesting Farris for 4Cs and Junior Worlds. If I understand the current ISU rules, once he skates an international senior competition he cannot compete at a Junior event that year. (And once he competes in two international senior competitions he can never return to juniors.)

Wouldn't skating in 4Cs automatically eliminate his eligibility for Junior Worlds? Or am I missing something?

The rule was discussed, and they brought in a variation of it for pairs to prevent situations like Sui/Han (competing Senior GP and then going to JW), but they didn't bring it in yet. I think it was one of those rules that was going to be brought in at a later time. The two Senior internationals, I'm sure that rule was discussed and I think it might have been brought in or be going to be brought in.

aftershocks
11-27-2012, 10:08 PM
^^ So, that means Farris could still be sent to 4CCs and to JW, then.

ITA with many of your viewpoints in your #302 post above, dinakt. Not sure though that Jeremy would have the luxury of not attempting his planned quad, at least in his fp.

Farris is definitely remarkable and clearly an all-around skater still growing into his power and still developing his expressiveness on the ice. He's very special, but not without aspects of his skating he can continually improve upon. I'm sure he would agree. :)