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Anita18
09-20-2012, 10:40 PM
You need to broaden your friendship pool. ;) There are plenty of ambitious people who don't want a spouse as ambitious as them because then the relationship has two alpha dogs. They want someone who complements them in the relationship rather than competes with them.
It works when they're not working in the same field. ;) And of course two true-blue alphas will probably spend more time fighting than getting along. There are always periods when one spouse is in the spotlight more than the other, and they'd have to be okay with that. (This is where many celebrity marriages fail, I bet.) I was not surprised when Hillary Clinton decided to stay with Bill, for one. They are both incredibly intelligent, ambitious people, but both are fine with the other being in the spotlight.

I do have relatives who are divorced, that are both doctors. She cared more about her career than the kids. In that case, I don't think it was necessarily her ambition per se, but her prioritizing her career ambition over her family. Most of all, they disagreed over how to raise the children.

I do think the equally-ambitious couples are definitely more common among the younger generation, the ones that are fine with bucking the traditional career-husband-with-SAHM marriage.

PDilemma
09-20-2012, 11:11 PM
I do think the equally-ambitious couples are definitely more common among the younger generation, the ones that are fine with bucking the traditional career-husband-with-SAHM marriage.

The degree to which a "career-husband-with-SAHM" is traditional is highly debatable. Contrary to the popular notion that every household was like the Cleavers until some random undefined point in the "60s", throughout history, women worked. Women worked alongside their husbands to run farms and family businesses, worked on estates just like men in medieval/feudal times, and worked in factories in large numbers (and at lower wages than men) during and after the industrial revolution.

And in my "older generation," I know exactly ONE couple that could be described as "career-husband-with-SAHM". I know several couples in which the wife makes a larger salary than the husband. One friend is cutting her work hours by 20% to have one extra day a week with her children soon and will still make a higher salary than her husband. I also can't think of too many of my peers whose mothers did not work for all or most of their childhoods in the 1970s and 1980s--hardly women of your generation.

Anita18
09-20-2012, 11:31 PM
The degree to which a "career-husband-with-SAHM" is traditional is highly debatable. Contrary to the popular notion that every household was like the Cleavers until some random undefined point in the "60s", throughout history, women worked. Women worked alongside their husbands to run farms and family businesses, worked on estates just like men in medieval/feudal times, and worked in factories in large numbers (and at lower wages than men) during and after the industrial revolution.

And in my "older generation," I know exactly ONE couple that could be described as "career-husband-with-SAHM". I know several couples in which the wife makes a larger salary than the husband. One friend is cutting her work hours by 20% to have one extra day a week with her children soon and will still make a higher salary than her husband. I also can't think of too many of my peers whose mothers did not work for all or most of their childhoods in the 1970s and 1980s--hardly women of your generation.
I know couples like you describe. My mom is close friends with a lady in her 50s who works next to her husband on a farm. All hands on deck with a life like that!

Even so, many still think it's traditional and are still raised with that thinking. I have a friend whose husband won't support her dreams of going back to school. Her job is to stay home and clean and cook and take care of the children. It's bad enough in his eyes that she's working at all. They're both in their early 30s.

VIETgrlTerifa
09-21-2012, 05:42 AM
I'm with Kwan and Anita. I need a guy to have some ambitions in life. I just find that it's harder to make it work and have someone who's willing to truly understand you unless he shares the goals you have. The opposite may work for people who don't want to be "defined" by their careers or overall life goals, but that's not me. Plus, it's not about money or status but just goals. I know people who have taken "traditional" higher paths who are with people who aren't as "accomplished" but they share a common value system and goal. They just went about achieving those things in different ways and they compliment each other. However, if one has certain ambitions then I can see them not wanting to be with someone who doesn't. Being a good and nice person just isn't enough for some people because there are a lot of people like that who are just content. That's fine, but not everyone wants that.

Obviously, Kwan wanted someone who shared similar goals as her and it steered in the direction of public diplomacy and international sevice among many other things. Kwan wouldn't have studied international relations and taken on jobs with the state department if she wasn't interested in that and I think it's quite obvious that Mr. Pell complimented her in that aspect. Lucky for her, everything else also fit into place.

Frau Muller
09-21-2012, 01:13 PM
, ....Kwan wouldn't have studied international relations and taken on jobs with the state department if .....

Oh, does Michelle now have a job at the State Dept? She does guest p.r. gigs for the White House, for Mrs Obama's 'get fit' initiative. Before, she was a 'goodwill ambassador' under Condoleeza Rice, even before she studied Int'l Diplomacy. I don't recall reading that she now has a job in the State Dept, which would entail having to pass the For Service Officer exam (or being a political appointee).

p.s. Of course, she can -- on her own merits or through Clay Pell -- maybe nab a nice potical appointment at a cushy Mission (not in the Middle East just yet, please!) She can just bypass the exam! She is DA KWEEN!!! :lol:

skatingfan5
09-21-2012, 03:23 PM
Oh, does Michelle now have a job at the State Dept? She does guest p.r. gigs for the White House, for Mrs Obama's 'get fit' initiative. Before, she was a 'goodwill ambassador' under Condoleeza Rice, even before she studied Int'l Diplomacy.What you call her "goodwill embassador" gig (as a U.S. public diplomacy envoy) is still on-going under the current secretary of state, Hillary Clinton. Her "p.r. gigs for the White House" are as a member of the President’s Council on Fitness, Sports and Nutrition. Her positions are not salaried ones.

attyfan
09-21-2012, 03:42 PM
Also, I am sure that there are plenty of jobs in the State Department that are neither political appointments nor require the Foreign Service exam. Didn't Michelle and Clay meet when they were going for the same fellowship, for example? So, when Michelle is no longer a "public diplomacy envoy", the exam could still be irrelevant to any potential job.

milanessa
09-21-2012, 04:24 PM
What you call her "goodwill embassador" gig (as a U.S. public diplomacy envoy) is still on-going under the current secretary of state, Hillary Clinton. Her "p.r. gigs for the White House" are as a member of the Presidentís Council on Fitness, Sports and Nutrition. Her positions are not salaried ones.


Also, I am sure that there are plenty of jobs in the State Department that are neither political appointments nor require the Foreign Service exam. Didn't Michelle and Clay meet when they were going for the same fellowship, for example? So, when Michelle is no longer a "public diplomacy envoy", the exam could still be irrelevant to any potential job.

Just ignore it. Frau Muller knows nothing about the State Department and doesn't want to know.

aftershocks
09-21-2012, 04:48 PM
^^ :lol:


Oh, does Michelle now have a job at the State Dept? She does guest p.r. gigs for the White House, for Mrs Obama's 'get fit' initiative. Before, she was a 'goodwill ambassador' under Condoleeza Rice, even before she studied Int'l Diplomacy. I don't recall reading that she now has a job in the State Dept, which would entail having to pass the For Service Officer exam (or being a political appointee).

p.s. Of course, she can -- on her own merits or through Clay Pell -- maybe nab a nice potical appointment at a cushy Mission (not in the Middle East just yet, please!) She can just bypass the exam! She is DA KWEEN!!! :lol:

I was in the process of responding to your question, when I saw that others have beat me to it. But in any case, for further clarification:

I believe the hard copy People article mentioned Michelle has a job in the state department. But I think that is a reference to her nonsalaried public diplomacy envoy position to which she was initially appointed by former Secretary Rice in November 2006 (also in Fall 2006, Michelle transferred from UCLA to the University of Denver to pursue an undergraduate major in international studies with a minor in political science -- and of course she graduated from Tufts University in 2011 with a Master's in international studies).

Wiki also mentions that Michelle has worked with Vice President Biden and with Secretary of State Hillary Clinton (apparently in her role as public diplomacy envoy). In April 2011, the state department announced that Kwan would serve as an adviser to U.S.-China Women's Leadership Exchange and Dialogue (Women-LEAD). Also in April 2011 (as reported in the recent article on Kwan's engagement), she met Clay Pell while they were both competing for a White House Fellowship appointment. Clay received a WH Fellowship appointment but Michelle did not.

It was in January 2009 that Michelle was appointed a member of the President's Council on Physical Fitness and Sports (I thought President Obama made the appointment, but Wiki perhaps inaccurately states it was President Bush). Michelle K is probably involved in First Lady Michelle O's "Get Fit" initiative as part of her role on the aforementioned Council.

As we all know, Kwan has received numerous awards and honors, including an honorary doctorate from Southern Vermont College in May 2010. During her skating career, Kwan has had numerous corporate endorsement contracts, and she has had a long relationship with the Walt Disney Company. She is also one of the Godmothers of the Royal Caribbean cruise ship, Oasis of the Seas.

It seems that Kwan's political appointments are all non-salaried, unless part of what she is doing at the state department involves receiving a salary. With all of her corporate endorsements and paid skating-related events over the years, MK is obviously independently wealthy. Not to mention the fact her family owns the skating rink, EastWest Ice Palace, in Artesia, CA.

The below from Wiki goes without stating, but it is always awe-inspiring to read once again:


Kwan has won five World Championships (1996, 1998, 2000, 2001, and 2003), the most by anyone in the ladies' division since Carol Heiss (1956–1960), with whom she is tied for the most wins by an American. She has won nine United States Figure Skating Championships (1996, 1998–2005), tying the record for most set by Maribel Vinson-Owen (1928–1933, 1935–1937). Kwan's eight consecutive U.S. Championship titles (1998–2005) and 12 consecutive U.S. Championship medals (1994–2005) are both U.S. records. She is the only woman in figure skating history to reclaim the World title three times (1998, 2000, 2003). She also won a silver medal at the 1998 Nagano Olympics and a bronze medal in the 2002 Salt Lake City Olympics. Among her many accolades, Kwan is a recipient of the prestigious James E. Sullivan Award, which is given to America's best amateur athlete; she was the first figure skater to win the award since Dick Button won it in 1949. Kwan has received a combined total of 57 6.0s (perfect scores) from her National and World competitions throughout the years. At the U.S. Championships alone, she holds the record for most 6.0s. Because figure skating is no longer scored on a 6.0 scale, Kwan's records will stand indefinitely.

skatesindreams
09-21-2012, 10:05 PM
Michelle will never want for money; or, opportunities to serve..
Unsalaried positions can be important stepping-stones to the ideal paid one.

Don't think that because these positions may be "voluntary", that they don't involve responsible, real work!

kwanfan1818
09-21-2012, 10:47 PM
In the past, diplomatic positions were paid a pittance, and it was expected of this mainly very, very wealthy set that they would be using a lot of their own money to subsidize travel and the social events expected of their position, not to mention the expected shows of wealth (furnishings, vehicles, servants, clothing, etc.)

They were, essentially,volunteer appointments.

aftershocks
09-22-2012, 03:53 AM
Michelle will never want for money; or, opportunities to serve..
Unsalaried positions can be important stepping-stones to the ideal paid one.

Don't think that because these positions may be "voluntary", that they don't involve responsible, real work!

Absolutely! Michelle has always worked very hard and IMO has never taken any of her gifts and opportunities for granted. Salaried or unsalaried matters not, and as I mentioned, we don't know whether or not some of the work she is doing at the state department might involve a salary. But that is beside the point.

To me, the important thing is that Michelle has always striven for excellence in everything she does. Michelle is a force of nature. Even after all Michelle's successes and accomplishments as a skater, she has only continued to grow in stature. Above all, she is all about giving back. And it's great to see her find someone special with similar goals and values. :)

ladybug2
09-22-2012, 06:40 AM
We must not forget that Michelle is a Director of the Special Olympics among all the other positions that she holds. She is one impressive young woman.

Jo Ann
09-22-2012, 01:21 PM
Absolutely! Michelle has always worked very hard and IMO has never taken any of her gifts and opportunities for granted. Salaried or unsalaried matters not, and as I mentioned, we don't know whether or not some of the work she is doing at the state department might involve a salary. But that is beside the point.

To me, the important thing is that Michelle has always striven for excellence in everything she does. Michelle is a force of nature. Even after all Michelle's successes and accomplishments as a skater, she has only continued to grow in stature. Above all, she is all about giving back. And it's great to see her find someone special with similar goals and values. :)

Thank you very much, aftershocks, for your informed, articulate posts. It is awe-inspiring and impressive to read what Michelle has accomplished already in her life. Clay's accomplishments are equally awe-inspiring and impressive. Along with all that, they share a sense of humor and can laugh together which is equally important in a successful marriage.

Best wishes to both of them! May their lives together be filled with love, joy and laughter.

Iceman
09-22-2012, 01:52 PM
Ambition has it dark side as many great minds have acknowledged and it should not be seen as always a positive character trait. Hopefully, Michelle and her beau will not and have not fallen victim to this darker side:


“Nothing truly valuable arises from ambition or from a mere sense of duty; it stems rather from love and devotion towards men and towards objective things.” Albert Einstein


It is the nature of ambition to make men liars and cheats, to hide the truth in their breasts, and show, like jugglers, another thing in their mouths, to cut all friendships and enmities to the measure of their own interest, and to make a good countenance without the help of good will. - Sallust


Ambition often puts Men upon doing the meanest offices; so climbing is performed in the
same position with creeping. - Jonathan Swift

Ambition is a lust that is never quenched, but grows more inflamed and madder by enjoyment. - Thomas Otway

We grow small trying to be great. - Eli Stanley Jones


When ambition ends, happiness begins. - Hungarian Proverb