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View Full Version : Patrick Chan embarks on season with new coach, choreographers and two new programs



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Emdee
09-17-2012, 06:58 PM
Zemgirl
I will send you the dollar for your Olympic fund! If you make a request on you tube with a suitable sob story you could soon end up with hundreds of thousands and indeed go to the Olys.

When I spoke of jealousy it did not refer to fans of other skaters but to the skaters themselves. There have been some who made snide remarks about Patrick but most are in awe of his skating skills. Its been said frequently that he is a skater's skater.


I wish Patrick only the very best of everything on his road to Sochi!

Zemgirl
09-17-2012, 07:14 PM
Zemgirl
I will send you the dollar for your Olympic fund! If you make a request on you tube with a suitable sob story you could soon end up with hundreds of thousands and indeed go to the Olys.

When I spoke of jealousy it did not refer to fans of other skaters but to the skaters themselves. There have been some who made snide remarks about Patrick but most are in awe of his skating skills. Its been said frequently that he is a skater's skater.
I will hold you to that if I ever begin a fundraising effort :D

As for the jealousy issue - yes, I know what you meant. But I don't think it's true regarding Patrick Chan's peers, either. Just like skating fans, different skaters can also prefer different styles of skating. It doesn't mean that they are jealous of Chan (or anyone else), just that his skating may not be their cup of tea. Accusations of jealousy are something one sees a lot of in online debates - for instance, apparently many writers and readers are jealous of E. L. James :rolleyes: - and I don't think it contributes to most discussions; it's kind of a fall back when people don't have a more compelling argument.

BTW, I will concede that Chan is much, much better at what he does than E. L. James is at what she does. :P

VarBar
09-17-2012, 08:25 PM
BTW, I will concede that Chan is much, much better at what he does than E. L. James is at what she does. :P

I have this feeling though there's far more people around the world getting excited about E.L. James' writing than people enjoying Chan's skating and if my assumption is correct, I can only conclude E.L. is much more skilled at what she does than Chan is in his line of work.:P

Japanfan
09-17-2012, 11:49 PM
Takahashi has used a wide variety of music in his programs. And they were very different. I mean he managed to portray both a tango with very sharp movement and a goofy, playful character in the same season. Last season one of his programs was a bit contemporary, the other was jazz. I could go on.


Taka is amazingly versatile. I'd give him the edge over Chan in terms of musicality and also say he's more of a natural-born entertainer. But Chan has other qualities that more than compensate for this.




And yes what you said is exactly my point. Those skaters' programs are somewhat similar because they have a specific style that they feel comfortable with.

With Chan, I don't really see any style there. He moves to the music but he doesn't seem to really feel it or engage with it in the same way. He remains a little distant.

It's exceptional skating and his programs tick the boxes for the most part but I just wish his programs had more character and that he was more expressive.


IMO his exceptional skating functions as a source of his expression. It enables him to construct moves and flourishes that highlight or punctuate the music. This wouldn't be possible without the skating skills. A skater can be wonderfully musical but not have technical ability to fully express that musicality. Patrick's musicality may not be his key strength, but it is not accurate at all to say he is woefully lacking in musicality. To give an analogy, a brilliant pianist may play a piece that she/he doesn't fully connect with, but the execution can still be outstanding. When the pianist does connect with the music, the piece achieves the level of a masterpiece.

What he hasn't had is a signature program, and to be fair, signature programs are rare for most skaters. That is what makes them 'signature'. I hope the Elegie will be the one that 'sings' for Patrick in terms of emotion and connection. His masterpiece, or hopefully his first masterpiece.

skatesindreams
09-18-2012, 04:24 PM
What he hasn't had is a signature program, and to be fair, signature programs are rare for most skaters. That is what makes them 'signature'.
I hope the Elegie will be the one that 'sings' for Patrick in terms of emotion and connection. His masterpiece, or hopefully his first masterpiece.

The "Elegie" EX achieved that, for me.
I hope the "Elegie" SP will, also.

bbkenn
09-28-2012, 06:57 PM
...and lots of comments about how Patrick is a great technician -- even on the PCS side and doesn't seem to have flashy or emotional qualities.
I would debate that but am happy to let it go. What I will say is that's what CoP values more now...the technical side of artistry.

This is first and foremost a sport. TES and PCS reward the physical challenges of execution. I tell people who are watching and are new to the sport "when you see something you think is good artistically ask yourself if it's physically challenging to do. If it's not, then it isn't rewarded much in the 'artistic' mark"

Way over-simplifying but that's how eligible skating is rewarded. You can bemoan the lack of emotional impact Patrick makes on you but while it does matter a tich, it doesn't matter enough to drive a different result in the standings. If you want to be emotionally impacted, go watch show skating. If you want to appreciate technical brilliance in every aspect of skating down to the slightest nuance, follow eligible skating.

Net net it's totally cool if Patrick doesn't do much for you...but trying to connect your feelings to your judgement of where skaters should be placing will forever be a losing battle.

Love this, you are so right.

kwanfan1818
09-29-2012, 06:03 PM
This is first and foremost a sport. TES and PCS reward the physical challenges of execution. I tell people who are watching and are new to the sport "when you see something you think is good artistically ask yourself if it's physically challenging to do. If it's not, then it isn't rewarded much in the 'artistic' mark"
It's true that this is the way PCS are rewarded, but there's nothing in the criteria that should reward Chan's IN and CH more than Janet Lynn's "Tales of the Vienna Woods" or Kurt Browning's jumpless "Nyah."


Way over-simplifying but that's how eligible skating is rewarded.
That's not oversimplifying the way marks are awarded, since most of the PCS are anchored to the SS mark and not that many at the senior level at any rank receive other PCS with a variance of more than a point of that mark or 1.25-1.5 from highest to lowest. If SS are tied to jump content, then PCS are even further in the direction of rewarding the technical.

Don't you just love a good, narrow corridor?

jettasian
09-29-2012, 08:37 PM
Takahashi has used a wide variety of music in his programs. And they were very different. I mean he managed to portray both a tango with very sharp movement and a goofy, playful character in the same season. Last season one of his programs was a bit contemporary, the other was jazz. I could go on.

And yes what you said is exactly my point. Those skaters' programs are somewhat similar because they have a specific style that they feel comfortable with.

With Chan, I don't really see any style there. He moves to the music but he doesn't seem to really feel it or engage with it in the same way. He remains a little distant.

It's exceptional skating and his programs tick the boxes for the most part but I just wish his programs had more character and that he was more expressive.

Also, you really need to chill out. :P

Chan also had different style of music, the jazzy Take 5 and the more classical Aranjez. You don't see it that doesn't mean it's not. It's just different taste. But to say that he doesn't have it is ridiculous.

jettasian
09-29-2012, 08:41 PM
Look, it's fine to like Chan's skating, and it's okay not to like it. Both are valid opinions. But just because you enjoy his skating and performances doesn't mean that everyone must.

I guess it can be said about you or others don't like Chan's skate. Just because you don't see it or don't enjoy his style, doesn't mean he doesn't have a style. It's just different skater for different people.

jettasian
09-29-2012, 08:43 PM
It's true that this is the way PCS are rewarded, but there's nothing in the criteria that should reward Chan's IN and CH more than Janet Lynn's "Tales of the Vienna Woods" or Kurt Browning's jumpless "Nyah."

They never competed at the same time, so not sure how you can compare their scores? Do you compare Dai's score and the other two as well?

VIETgrlTerifa
09-30-2012, 12:05 AM
I'm glad to see that in-fact Patrick Chan's musicality is actually able to stir up strong emotions in people.

Ziggy
09-30-2012, 01:07 AM
There are other skaters who can do that besides Takahashi.

Nobody else can do it as well, though.


To each his/her own. Some of us prefer the dramatic and expressive and some prefer the understated. Give me Patrick and Kozuka any time. :)

Intense music calls for intense expression, understated music calls for understated expression. And so on. Movement should be appropriate to the music.

What you are doing though is using 'understated' as an excuse for lacking performance skills and being too introverted on the ice instead of presenting out to the audience.

Kozuka has good basics, good timing but zero style and looks like he couldn't care less when he is skating. Which is a real shame because it's a total waste of his abilities. And he does get hammered on the PCS as well.


We all need to chill out before it gets too hot in here. (Anyway, you are bad Ziggy. You threw THE stone in the hornet's nest. Newton's third law: for every action there's an equal opposite reaction.) ;)

I assume that people who post on this board are adults (or teenagers) who are capable of critical thinking.


Chan also had different style of music, the jazzy Take 5 and the more classical Aranjez. You don't see it that doesn't mean it's not. It's just different taste. But to say that he doesn't have it is ridiculous.

I wasn't talking about just picking different styles of music. I was talking showing different styles of movement, appropriately to the music chosen.

You move very differently in a tango (sharp, staccato, etc.) and in a street dance (down in the knees, more fluid, etc.).

The Accordion
09-30-2012, 02:32 AM
What you are doing though is using 'understated' as an excuse for lacking performance skills and being too introverted on the ice instead of presenting out to the audience.





There are really different ideas on and perceptions of different performances whether it be skating or dancing and acting or other performances where there is an experience shared between audience and performer(s).

It is never going to be the same for everyone. And no matter how many people agree or disagree about the experience or what background or training certain individuals have - it will never be simple or black and white enough for anyone to say that another person's experience or perception is wrong.

There may be opinions that are more common - but even if there are 5000 people in the audience and 2 of them like something that none of the others do or vice versa - those 2 people are not wrong.

And that is why there is so much passionate arguing on FSU and it seems some performers or performances divide people more than others. And some bring out the most passionate support or - the opposite - even hostility.

I love watching Takahashi. I honestly think there is no one else quite like him and IMO he makes every piece of music his own and performs it so very very well - I buy it. There are other people who find his performances over the top and therefore not enjoyable. I can't say they are wrong - though what they experience is different from what I experience.

I love watching Patrick Chan and I find him to be musical and detailed and subtle. I also appreciate that he is putting a great deal of effort into working with dancers and other choreographers to expand his abilities as a performer and skater and perhaps it will lead to some of the many who don't enjoy his skating to like it more. Perhaps it won't. In any case - I don't think for a moment I am confusing lack of expression with subtlety.

I could go on - and probably will in some other post about different perceptions I have encountered with dance, theatre film and a great deal of other skating.

spikydurian
09-30-2012, 03:21 AM
Ziggy, to each his/her own. Cheers.:40beers:

Emdee
09-30-2012, 01:21 PM
Any performance has two ways to reach the audience.
Drawing the audience in or reaching out to the audience.

IMO in Patrick's better performances ( 4cc 2009, Canadian Nats 2011, Canadian Nats 2012, Worlds 2011) he draws you into his programs.
Reaching out is what entertainers do but artists draw you in.

The Chan versus Taka debates are unfair as you are comparing a 21 year old Chan with a 26 year old Taka. 5 extra years of skating, studying movement expression etc are bound to develop a recognizable style. Patrick is in the development stage of his own style. That is why he has made a monumental move this year working with different choreographers exploring different styles and nuances in music.
What is amazing though is Patrick's sophistication as a skater at the age of 21.