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skfan
08-05-2012, 12:19 AM
I rewatched both of them and whilst there were mistakes, G&G had a clarity of line and ease of movement that is quite special. And whilst you can't hear it, apparently the one thing they had above the other skaters was their quietness on the ice. I also felt they had a better connection to the music. As the commentator said on the clip I saw, it was as if Beethoven had written that music for them. I don't think I got quite the same connection with M&D.

YMMV. the olympics was the weakest performance of that moonlight sonata program. i don't think G&G made everything look easy--when you stumble, you aren't making it look easy. under 6.0 judging they made more than 1 mistake. M&D were not *so* inferior to them that they should have had a 2 stumbles cushion. the judges judged the practices and pre-awarded the gold to G&G. yes, i am still peeved about the 94 olympics :lol:

i'm glad that natalia landed on her feet and i still root for her students today... unless they are wearing oven-mitts :)

casken
08-08-2012, 02:50 AM
I preferred M&D by a mile, but I really have to stand up for the difficulty and seamless of G&G lifts.

I've seen some more exciting lifts since then, but I don't think I've seen a higher quality set of lifts performed in a LP since that performance. The one lift were they are in one hand position and she's actually rotating her body around in the air... I don't think I've seen that since. :kickass:

Dilng
08-09-2012, 06:56 PM
Whatever it is, I freaking loved them. Omg.:( Still one of the most inventive, charismatic pairs of all time. And I loved the death glares Natasha gave Artur when he made a mistake. They were awesome.:lol:

ITA!! They were mesmerizing. There hasn't been a pairs team since them that I love as much as I loved them. :swoon:

orbitz
08-09-2012, 07:29 PM
M&D skated with passion in LilliHamer; The ending with Artur leaping with abandon into the air and then Natalia skating right into his open arms was thrilling; One of the best endings to a pairs' LP. Ever.

G&G probably had better flow and better quality throws, but they made obvious mistakes in both the SP and LP. Moonlight was also a rather traditional LP that we've seen from other pairs before. The one thing I did love about the Moonlight choreography was when Sergei and Katia's arms weaved over and under each other but never touched. That was a brilliant moment from Marina.

Vash01
08-11-2012, 08:28 AM
I rewatched both of them and whilst there were mistakes, G&G had a clarity of line and ease of movement that is quite special. And whilst you can't hear it, apparently the one thing they had above the other skaters was their quietness on the ice. I also felt they had a better connection to the music. As the commentator said on the clip I saw, it was as if Beethoven had written that music for them. I don't think I got quite the same connection with M&D.

I have watched that competition over and over again and I still cannot decide which pair was better. I go back and forth on the win. They really were apples and oranges. However, M&D skated two solid performances, and G&G's mistake in SP and minor mistakes in the LP were totally ignored by the judges. G&G's LP performance got a 6.0 for artistic marks, but M&D were equally deserving of a 6.0, which was not given to them.

Argument could be made in G&G's favor because of their stronger basic skating skills but M&D were no slouches either. They skated with great passion between them, with the same level of difficulty as G&G (actually their lifts were more challenging, and they did sbs 3t vs. G&G's sbs 2A- just minor things), and their 94 Oly LP performance is one of the best ever. It was good enough to win the gold. That is why the 8-1 (only the Belarus judge placed M&D higher) judging decision in G&G's favor bothered me. They had already decided who would win the gold.

I always loved M&D's creative choreography. IMO they really changed pairs skating from doing standard pairs moves. Before them, Valova-Vasiliev had some creative moves too, but the beauty of M&D's Lieberstaum was incomparable to anyone before them. They had a great impact on the sport.

Going back to the original question- why did they split up- there could have been a combination of reasons, but IMO the deciding factor was that Natalia was burned out after competing in two Olympics, but Artur wanted to go on to 1998. She was not feeling too motivated after their 1992 OGM, and many Olympic champions don't feel motivated enough to continue after an OGM, so who can blame her? Regardless, I was very disappointed that they suddenly broke up. They had not had a lot of success as pros between 92 and 94, but after the 94 Olympics they seemed to be really good and on way to becoming even greater.

When Artur looked for another partner, he looked for a smaller partner, since he had that choice. Natalia was big for a pairs skater, but Artur was very strong, so I don't think it was an issue when they were skating together. I don't buy that romance/broken heart story either. I liked Kazakova & Dmitriev, but never as much as Mishkutenok-Dmitriev. There was a charm about them that very few teams have.

Even with two mistakes, M&D's Liebestraum is one of the greatest performances in pairs skating.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-lIi2YAJyY&feature=related

I love this exhibition by M&D:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=gvNC_zfEPIw&NR=1

Here is another exhibition- I had completely forgotten this one. They were so creative and exciting to watch!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZQC34u4AfQ

Vash01
08-11-2012, 08:48 AM
YMMV. the olympics was the weakest performance of that moonlight sonata program. i don't think G&G made everything look easy--when you stumble, you aren't making it look easy. under 6.0 judging they made more than 1 mistake. M&D were not *so* inferior to them that they should have had a 2 stumbles cushion. the judges judged the practices and pre-awarded the gold to G&G. yes, i am still peeved about the 94 olympics :lol:

i'm glad that natalia landed on her feet and i still root for her students today... unless they are wearing oven-mitts :)

You are right. G&G did not make everything look easy. Katia landed forward on the throw 2A. Sergei's minor mistakes (losing unison on the 2f and singling the 2S) were ignored by the judges. The loss of unison on the sbs camel spins in the SP was also ignored, in a way (their tech marks were slightly low, but the artistic marks put them ahead). Basically they had the gold unless she had fallen on a throw. M&D were undermarked in both SP and LP (particularly in the LP- leaving plenty of room for G&G). Since I loved both pairs, I was not as upset as some others about the final results, but it greatly bothered me to see M&D get such low marks after two perfect performances.

Who are Natalia's students? Do they compete at the international level?

casken
08-11-2012, 09:22 AM
G&G probably had better flow and better quality throws, but they made obvious mistakes in both the SP

I thought they were clean in the sp?


You are right. G&G did not make everything look easy. Katia landed forward on the throw 2A. Sergei's minor mistakes (losing unison on the 2f and singling the 2S) were ignored by the judges. The loss of unison on the sbs camel spins in the SP was also ignored, in a way (their tech marks were slightly low, but the artistic marks put them ahead).


G&G were such a textbook pair that, without those small miscues, I could have easily seen them getting a row of 6.0's for both marks, so an argument could be made that they were actually marked down.

Again I think people are undervaluing G&G having three incredibly difficult and perfectly executed lifts to only two for M&D, neither of which came close to the difficulty that G&G had. M&D's one arm overhead lift only goes to one arm for about one second. The second lift never goes to one arm, and all the difficulty comes in the dismount.

Again, I prefer M&D by a mile, but I understand the judging.

Minou
08-11-2012, 03:46 PM
I love this, one of their last :
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x5frot_mishkutenok-dmitriev-1995-nuit-de-s_sport?search_algo=2.

One of the commentators mentions the importance of ballet training for MD and other Russian pairs.

gk_891
08-11-2012, 04:30 PM
Artistically, I also found M/D much more interesting than G/G. There was a great beauty to G/G's Moonlight Sonata program but it also bored me to a certain extent. The problem with M/D was with some of their basics. Their stroking was much noisier than G/G who you can barely hear when they skate by whereas with M/D, you can really hear them digging and scratching into the ice. Artur always traveled on the side by side spins, Natalia almost always two footed her double axel, and their lifts were much simpler. G/G skated a nervous and flawed performance but their basics were so much better than M/D. It's to my understanding that this was the difference between the Moscow and St. Petersburg camp (technical perfection vs. artistic perfection).

skfan
08-11-2012, 07:04 PM
You are right. G&G did not make everything look easy. Katia landed forward on the throw 2A. Sergei's minor mistakes (losing unison on the 2f and singling the 2S) were ignored by the judges. The loss of unison on the sbs camel spins in the SP was also ignored, in a way (their tech marks were slightly low, but the artistic marks put them ahead). Basically they had the gold unless she had fallen on a throw. M&D were undermarked in both SP and LP (particularly in the LP- leaving plenty of room for G&G). Since I loved both pairs, I was not as upset as some others about the final results, but it greatly bothered me to see M&D get such low marks after two perfect performances.

Who are Natalia's students? Do they compete at the international level?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natalia_Mishkutenok
wiki says: One of her students is the U.S. men's 2009 novice silver medalist Stevan Evans. don't know if this is out of date

this icenetwork article is quite old.
http://web.icenetwork.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080121&content_id=41116&vkey=ice_news

i believe there was a more recent ice network article as well, where she was asked why all the russian pairs had problems at 2012 worlds--that article mentions her more recent students. Sylvia would know best who her current students are. i know she definitely coached angela maxwell in the past.


re: G&G and M&D in '94, if lifts and unison were all that counted, and skaters should not be penalized for mess ups on individual jumps, then donlan & speroff should have been U.S. champs several times over. skaters have to perform ALL the elements in the program. it all depends on how you weigh the elements, and the overall impact. for me the first mistake by G&G already shattered the mood, which even when successfully achieved doesn't give me the palpable thrill of M&D. YMMV

Vash01
08-12-2012, 07:52 PM
:eek::lol: OMG the bit at the end where he is throwing his baby around!

Here is one of their professional performances

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-40qZAY2Gw&feature=related

Inspite of the criticism by Bezic (the most biased commentator) and the low marks by the judges, I thought this was a beautiful program to a beautiful piece of music.

Here is a performance that I had never seen before. It's from Skates of Gold in 1994

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=Uhz3b_tA9ps&NR=1

Vash01
08-12-2012, 07:59 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7nDE2TWcv_4

Here is another one of M&D's exhibition (1992). IMO they were a very underrated team for what they could do. I liked the fact that Artur was as important in this pair as Natalia was. He was not just a frame showcasing a picture. His passion and their creativity made them a very exciting pair.

As fans we got to see two greatest pairs M&D and G&G competing at the same time (1989-1990 and 1994), with two completely different styles. I feel very lucky.

Another thing I really appreciated about M&D was their class. At the 1994 Olympics many felt that they skated better than G&G but at the medal ceremony they were very classy (and so were G&G). It was the best Olympic pairs competition in every respect I have seen, ever.

Vash01
08-12-2012, 08:27 PM
Artistically, I also found M/D much more interesting than G/G. There was a great beauty to G/G's Moonlight Sonata program but it also bored me to a certain extent. The problem with M/D was with some of their basics. Their stroking was much noisier than G/G who you can barely hear when they skate by whereas with M/D, you can really hear them digging and scratching into the ice. Artur always traveled on the side by side spins, Natalia almost always two footed her double axel, and their lifts were much simpler. G/G skated a nervous and flawed performance but their basics were so much better than M/D. It's to my understanding that this was the difference between the Moscow and St. Petersburg camp (technical perfection vs. artistic perfection).

Natalia did not double foot her 2A here (94 SP). She often struggled with it in practice but she almost always delivered it in competitions.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYehy9pTNOQ&feature=relmfu

In all the discussions, people don't mention how good M&D's extensions were, and how great the unison on sbs spins. Their basic skating was not as great(quiet) as G&G's but they were much more creative in their choreography. I really don't know which pair I like better. They were both great in their own way.

Sylvia
08-12-2012, 10:35 PM
Who are Natalia's students? Do they compete at the international level?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natalia_Mishkutenok
wiki says: One of her students is the U.S. men's 2009 novice silver medalist Stevan Evans. don't know if this is out of date
Natalia M. co-coached Steven Evans to a U.S. Junior Men's pewter medal at 2011 Nationals and he competed at one JGP a couple of years ago - link to his bio: http://web.icenetwork.com/skaters/detail.jsp?id=100827&mode=I
Evans finished 5th in Senior Men at Midwestern Sectionals last season (just missed qualifying for 2012 Nationals) and hasn't competed this summer, AFAIK. The skaters she's coaching this season appear to be Intermediate level and below. Her daughter, Natasha, is at the Pre-Preliminary level. :)


this icenetwork article is quite old.
http://web.icenetwork.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080121&content_id=41116&vkey=ice_news

i believe there was a more recent ice network article as well, where she was asked why all the russian pairs had problems at 2012 worlds--that article mentions her more recent students.
Found it - April 2012 "Inside Edge" blog: http://web.icenetwork.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20120426&content_id=29716584&vkey=ice_news
Excerpt:

Mishkutenok has a 6-year-old daughter, Natasha, who is a skater. (She competed last weekend, the proud mother told us). In addition to her daughter, Mishkutenok is coaching a big stable of young skaters, including 2011 U.S. junior pewter medalist Steven Evans.

"When I moved here, I picked up all the little kids, and I started with him when he was 10, in learn-to-skate classes," Mishkutenok said. "I have a lot of kids that just graduated and went to college. I have little ones that just started skating with me this summer."

We wondered if the great pairs skater was coaching any up-and-coming pairs teams. She said she was, mostly younger teams.

"I have pair teams, but it's so hard to keep them together," she said. "One little boy likes doing pairs, but he does soccer and football; he has so many sports going on. Or one person gets unhappy and then that's it. We have a lot of recreational skaters and we have a lot of singles skaters, really good kids, but there aren't a lot of older kids that keep skating."

lulu
09-05-2012, 07:29 PM
I love this, one of their last :
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x5frot_mishkutenok-dmitriev-1995-nuit-de-s_sport?search_algo=2.

One of the commentators mentions the importance of ballet training for MD and other Russian pairs.

Thank you so much for the link. I was looking everywhere for this program, considering that it's 1995, this is probably the very last skating appearance by M&D.

M&D are my favorite skaters. I just love how unique they were: their innovative choreography, performance style and on-ice chemistry was unlike any other top level pair at the time. In addition to their speed and spirals, I would also mention that they (especially Artur) had great musicality. They were just :kickass:

The step sequence in 2nd Piano Concerto and the death spiral sequence (especially Natalia's positions) in Liebestraum are just :swoon: X infinity.

I'm glad the decided to skate to Rachmaninoff, but I would love to have seen their interpretation of Swan Lake as well.

I thought they should have won the 1994 OGM, but I can understand the logic behind the argument that G&G should have won. What I don't understand, was the decision by the one or two judges to mark M&D behind B&E.