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skatesindreams
09-14-2012, 08:56 PM
Since we never saw the first look, completed and - I doubt that Tim did, either; we can't know if the criticism was justified.

aftershocks
09-14-2012, 09:57 PM
Was Tim's criticism harsh and leaning toward obnoxiousness, yes perhaps. But Tim has a good eye for design and he has a genuinely loveable personality/ persona. If I was a designer in that position (hopefully I would not be as arrogant as Ven tho') and Tim gave me such a critique, I wouldn't get pissed and down about it. I would quickly try to figure out where I erred and how I could still "make it work." It was too late perhaps for Ven to change the print design, but perhaps he should not have tried to use it the way he did re red flower applied to a white background. He might have been better off using the flower in an all-over print design. His obsession with draping and manipulating fabric into a flower can work well, but it can also prove limiting, as it did for this week's challenge.

Tim could only critique the initial effort based on what he saw, and the direction he saw it going in. It was up to Ven to defend what he was doing and where he was going. The fact he didn't or couldn't is likely because he was unsure of his direction in this challenge. What he ended up with bears that out.

Many designers have received harsh criticism from Tim (he's on their side and trying to help without actually doing the work for them himself ;)) Sometimes designers have ignored Tim's comments and stuck with their original ideas, e.g., the designer earlier this season in the craft challenge who kept going and ended up with something that turned out to be safe and not quite as bad as it looked initially -- she did slightly modify I think but stuck with her original dotty apron-like idea. Tim isn't always right, but he tends to be. I don't think he feels he knows it all. He asks the designers questions, and he offers suggestions. If he feels strongly about something, he lets them know. In this case, Tim may have been off the mark (and/ or offensive in the estimation of some viewers) with the phrasing of his critique, but I think Tim was also being very sincere about what the judges' reactions might be, and he wasn't off the mark there. Tim voiced exactly how he felt in order to help Ven think about making adjustments before sending such a hot mess down the runway.

Of course the challenge was about making a personal statement based on the designers' own heritage/ personal experiences. Ultimately, if you want to survive and thrive as a designer, gaining inspiration from something that moves or affects you personally can be an asset, but allowing oneself to take criticism personally could be a stumbling block. If a designer does that on PR, they might soon be auf'ed. If they take criticism personally as an aspiring designer, they likely will never make it to the top in the world of fashion.

Jenya
09-14-2012, 10:05 PM
Dmitry! :cheer2: Loved the whole look, he totally deserved the win.

So over Ven. :blah:

cruisin
09-14-2012, 10:06 PM
Plus, the "Ven signature" didn't really work with the textile. It looked completely out of place, so I can understand the criticism of including it.

I actually thought Ven's print was awful, when I first saw it. The flowers were too big, too cartoonish and too far apart. Then, it occurred to me that this was Ven. That, with all of his pleating he would use up all of the blank, white space with folds and bring the flowers closer together and give them dimension. He did nothing like that. The dress was not ugly, but disappointing.

I thought Tim was right, but his words were rather questionable.

Jem X
09-14-2012, 11:55 PM
Well Heidi told Ven that the judges were tired of the rose look and not to keep repeating the same look over and over. Ven's final collection is the same look over and over with roses. I guess this means that Ven is "out" and his final collection is an " F U" message to the judges.

skatesindreams
09-14-2012, 11:55 PM
Then, it occurred to me that this was Ven. That, with all of his pleating he would use up all of the blank, white space with folds and bring the flowers closer together and give them dimension.

This might well have been Ven's intention; but, after Tim's critique, he didn't dare risk it.

I was shocked and stunned by Tim's comments; and I have nothing "invested" in the outcome.
I can only imagine how Ven might have felt.

Jem X
09-14-2012, 11:57 PM
And since the judges questioned Dmitri's styling, and his final collection has the heavy brow styling, this could also mean that Dmitri is out.

all_empty
09-15-2012, 05:56 AM
I've seen the heavy brow styling used by other designers. I don't find it jarring.

I think Tim's comments hurt Ven deeply. As sensitive as they were to Gunnar, they were equally insensitive to Ven. Maxi pads be damned, I'd rather see his original dress than the fabrigami dress he scrambled to make.

It's interesting that he's been compared to Marchesa, because Marchesa went with an Indian theme for their Spring 2013 collection. And, as I've said before, Ven will have no problems selling his dresses.

I can never predict what the outcome will be. Given that Lord & Taylor is part of the prize, I suspect Chris, Ven and Dimitry would fare quite well. I did enjoy Elena's collection though and wouldn't be surprised if they tapped her for the "All Stars" season, which was just filmed.

I've been to a few "Project Runway" finales and audience reaction isn't a good gauge. Gretchen got a horrible reaction from the audience (even the other "bitch" Ivy was well received) and her clothes were SO boring. It was clear in the finale Heidi was "outvoted" as well. So we'll see!

aftershocks
09-15-2012, 06:27 AM
I've seen the heavy dark brow styling used effectively before. On Dimitri's models it just didn't work, IMO. I think the brow look detracted from Dimitri's designs.

Poor Ven. Bad ol' Tim. But well, at least Ven might now know a little about how crappy he might have made his client feel during the "real woman" challenge with his arrogant and insensitive comments. Being drawn to make flowers in his fashions due to cultural reasons is admirable, but Ven perhaps might have been better served in the latest challenge by trying something completely different and unexpected.

There are many instances when I've felt that designers on PR have been unfairly treated or too harshly criticized, but Ven is not the first designer that I would think of in this regard.

my little pony
09-15-2012, 06:52 AM
i hope i like the designs better when i see them in motion. if i had to declare a winner right now, i think i'd leave it blank like the ladies spot at 1994 nats.

Nomad
09-16-2012, 01:05 AM
But none of those designers ever used such a distinctive feature as Ven's "fabrigami" (thanks to whoever here coined that) ...

Laura Bennett coined the word "fabrigami". She used it to describe Andy South's work on Season 8. I miss her blog posts.

skatesindreams
09-16-2012, 05:38 PM
There are many instances when I've felt that designers on PR have been unfairly treated or too harshly criticized, but Ven is not the first designer that I would think of in this regard.

There is a big difference between valid criticism and distasteful and insulting comments; particularly when they are delivered by someone who is a mentor/producer of the program.

Nomad
09-16-2012, 06:05 PM
There is a big difference between valid criticism and distasteful and insulting comments; particularly when they are delivered by someone who is a mentor/producer of the program.

What we see is heavily edited. Take the judging portion as an example: They call Tim in, he repeats his comments, follows up with "I just want to share with you my frustration with Ven." And then nothing. No elaboration. To me, "I just want to share with you my frustration with Ven" is an intro, not an ending. I think there was a lot more said after that but the editing monkeys cut it out. Same with Tim's initial critique - they picked what they thought were the best bits and scrapped the rest. Who knows what else he said to Ven? Maybe something like, "You've done the fabrigami fan four times and the florigami rose four times, move on, Ven. Think outside your little box."

FWIW, one of the posters on TLo said that s/he'd gone to one of Tim Gunn's book-signing parties and someone apparently asked about Ven. Tim's reply was that the editing monkeys had been very kind to Ven and that his real personality is what we all saw in the makeover episode when he treated his client like sh*t.

skatesindreams
09-16-2012, 06:15 PM
What we did see was bad enough, on all sides, IMO.

Nomad
09-16-2012, 06:29 PM
Well, I for one didn't think Tim's comments were so heinous. When he made them, I saw what he meant. And I certainly don't feel sorry for Ven; his decoy collection, his Makeover Look, his Fall Look and this one all prove to me that his reaction to criticism is a big "Fcuk you" where he either makes no effort (Makeover/Fall) or just defaults to his "signature" fabri/florigami crap (decoy collection/Print challenge).