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VIETgrlTerifa
07-16-2012, 05:15 AM
In terms of pure enjoyment I'd rank Navka/Kostomorov dead last. I can't think of one FD that I enjoyed other than that incoherent Michael Jackson/George Benson FD. I also think they left the least impact for the sport of Ice Dancing of all the remaining teams and I'm still bitter over 2004 Worlds. People also overstate Navka's divaness with her vapid open mouthed smile (and people bitch about Tanith's "O" face) especially when we have the likes of Grishuk, Anissina, Krylova, and Babs to compare her to. Wow, she wore a headband! So cool! :rolleyes:

With that said, I did thoroughly enjoy their 2004 and 2006 OD even when I thought their FDs were some of the most uninspired ever for a top team. It's like with her lines and them being Russian they were only creatively inspired to a certain point because it was good enough for the powers that be to be considered the best for that quad. It's like the way Bestemianova/Bukin could have done whatever on the ice and they would win anyway except without the voids. From their quad give me any other routine by DenStavs and DelSchoes any day.

casken
07-16-2012, 05:34 AM
I also just remembered that DenSta had a huge setback when they lost a year when Lang/Tcherneychev ran into them in practice and severed two of Denkova's tendons.


At the 2000 World Championships, Denkova was seriously injured in the practice before the free dance; Peter Tchernyshev's blade slashed her leg above her boot, severing two tendons and a muscle.[1] She eventually returned to training but suffered swelling in her leg. After she asked the U.S. Figure Skating Association if Tchernyshev had insurance to help cover her medical expenses, the organizers withdrew Denkova/Staviski's invitation to 2000 Skate America.[1]

What's gross is that DenSta finished behind L&T next year at 2001 worlds (DelSchoes too) when Tchernychev had to pull Lang through all the difficult bits of their FD and she still screwed up the ending. :rolleyes:

miffy
07-16-2012, 01:39 PM
Denkova is by far the weakest skater out of all those left so they really should be gone. And that's even before we get to the fact that they have no olympic medals.ITA. I can see Navka will probably go next but IMO it should be DenStas.

miffy
07-16-2012, 01:51 PM
What's gross is that DenSta finished behind L&T next year at 2001 worlds (DelSchoes too) when Tchernychev had to pull Lang through all the difficult bits of their FD and she still screwed up the ending. :rolleyes:L/T were far from being the only team with one weaker partner... :saint:

L/T were not in the same league of any of these teams at their peak, and their results reflected that, but at least Naomi was always very elegant.

Proustable
07-16-2012, 02:24 PM
Take everything I said about DelSchoes, and apply it to DenSta.

They were underrated early in their career, they should have gotten the bronze at 2002 worlds, they had the most difficult OD and FD in 2003 and easily could have won, they could have won 2004, they got totally screwed at the Olympics in 2006 becuase apparently missing a position in a dance spin in the OD is worse than skating like Ruslan Goncharov for three phases. :rolleyes:


Out of curiosity, would you have both D/S' on the podium in place of B/A and G/G, or just one?

Cherub721
07-16-2012, 03:00 PM
V&M obviously have better body types for dance and are a better match physically for CoP elements, but they could only dream of getting the push to the blade and deepness of edges that D&S could. Like DelSchoes, if marked properly, they would have a more impressive record.


I have to defend Virtue & Moir here. They have better body types for dance in terms of leanness (and why not, since Virtue actually was a ballet dancer), but they are pretty close in height, and much more so than DelSchoes though not DenSta. In fact V&M struggled with CoP lifts the first couple of seasons, and made tremendous improvements there in 2008, and now have some of the best lifts in the world. It's not only amazing to me that they can do the million changes of positions in one lift to get levels a la D&W, but that Virtue manages to have a perfect, fully extended position during every millisecond and even during the transitional points, something that Davis, Delobel, or Denkova could never do (and Navka was often stumbly coming in and out of lifts). And during all those position changes, Scott is always on a deep and secure edge, just like Olivier and Maxim.

I also disagree about the depth and power of V&M's edges. IMO power is a major reason why V&M beat DelSchoes in the FD in 2008 (it certainly wasn't transitions since V&M had none that season ;)). As for cleanness of the edges, just look at all the level 4 footworks V&M have collected.

V&M managed top 6 in their first senior Worlds. N&K did not achieve this until their 4th Worlds (Navka's 9th), DenSta until their 5th (Denkova's 9th).

In contrast, teams like A&P did it on their second try, K&O on their first (Krylova also won bronze in a first attempt with Fedorov), and G&P on their first (Platov's second). IMO these teams and Virtue/Moir are more naturally talented.

girlscouse62
07-16-2012, 03:42 PM
I would like to add to Cherub's line of thought, if I may? Tessa was 17 and Scott 19 when they came 6th, 18 and 20 when they took silver (1st in FD), 19 and 21 when they won bronze after she had double leg surgery, 20 and 22 when they won OGM and World's, 21 and 23 when they took silver after only one competition and another double leg surgery for Tess, and 22and 24 when they won 2nd World's, with the possibility for even more. K & O won 2 WCH DenStav 2 WCh. How can they possibly be weaker than any of the other skaters in this group?

shady82
07-16-2012, 10:49 PM
I loved L/T though. While I disagree with Susie Wynne calling them "an unheralded team" that should be in the top 5-6, L/T were certainly not overmarked. Their 2001 OD and FD were both superb.

One of my favorite parts of the 2000-2002 phase was the middle-ranked teams. Lang/Tchernyshev, Denkova/Staviski, Dubreuil/Lauzon, and Delobel/Schoenfelder all produced innovative, memorable programs. Although they weren't able to challenge the top 5 at the time, their programs for me were as memorable as those of the top 5 (A/P, F-P/M, L/A, B/K, and D/V).

Cherub721
07-17-2012, 12:06 AM
One of my favorite parts of the 2000-2002 phase was the middle-ranked teams. Lang/Tchernyshev, Denkova/Staviski, Dubreuil/Lauzon, and Delobel/Schoenfelder all produced innovative, memorable programs. Although they weren't able to challenge the top 5 at the time, their programs for me were as memorable as those of the top 5 (A/P, F-P/M, L/A, B/K, and D/V).

ITA. That was such a great time for ice dancing. Everyone in the top 15 or so was good. I would include Winkler & Lohse, Drobiazko & Vanagas, and Chait & Sakhnovsky there. Also, although they went on to medal in 2006, Grushina & Goncharov and Navka & Kostomarov had more interesting FDs during this period.

Today we're lucky to have 1-2 interesting teams in the whole event. :(

Taso
07-17-2012, 12:07 AM
ITA. That was such a great time for ice dancing. Everyone in the top 15 or so was good. I would include Winkler & Lohse, Drobiazko & Vanagas, and Chait & Sakhnovsky there. Also, although they went on to medal in 2006, Grushina & Goncharov and Navka & Kostomarov had more interesting FDs during this period.

Today we're lucky to have 1-2 interesting teams in the whole event. :(

Word...

DaiKozOda
07-17-2012, 12:30 AM
Today we're lucky to have 1-2 interesting teams in the whole event. :(

My feelings exactly.

kwanette
07-17-2012, 01:18 AM
I loved L/T though. While I disagree with Susie Wynne calling them "an unheralded team" that should be in the top 5-6, L/T were certainly not overmarked. Their 2001 OD and FD were both superb.

One of my favorite parts of the 2000-2002 phase was the middle-ranked teams. Lang/Tchernyshev, Denkova/Staviski, Dubreuil/Lauzon, and Delobel/Schoenfelder all produced innovative, memorable programs. Although they weren't able to challenge the top 5 at the time, their programs for me were as memorable as those of the top 5 (A/P, F-P/M, L/A, B/K, and D/V).

This^....(Out of reps for ya)

Loved L and T's OD from 01 Worlds..It's a dance that I watch over and over again.

shady82
07-17-2012, 01:39 AM
F/S in 2003, and G/P and the Kerrs in 2004 were amazing too. I often feel like the middle-ranked teams produce the best interesting programs, but their programs become tamer and more judge-friendly as they reach medal contention.

blue_idealist
07-17-2012, 02:36 AM
F/S in 2003, and G/P and the Kerrs in 2004 were amazing too. I often feel like the middle-ranked teams produce the best interesting programs, but their programs become tamer and more judge-friendly as they reach medal contention.

I tend to agree with this about the programs. Somewhat of an exception: Pechalat/Bourzat, although Organ Donor is more voidy than their more recent programs too.

Just for the record, I haaaaated Lang and Tschernyshev and will never voluntarily watch another program of theirs. Zzzz.

vivika1982
07-17-2012, 03:06 AM
I have to defend Virtue & Moir here. They have better body types for dance in terms of leanness (and why not, since Virtue actually was a ballet dancer), but they are pretty close in height, and much more so than DelSchoes though not DenSta. In fact V&M struggled with CoP lifts the first couple of seasons, and made tremendous improvements there in 2008, and now have some of the best lifts in the world. It's not only amazing to me that they can do the million changes of positions in one lift to get levels a la D&W, but that Virtue manages to have a perfect, fully extended position during every millisecond and even during the transitional points, something that Davis, Delobel, or Denkova could never do (and Navka was often stumbly coming in and out of lifts). And during all those position changes, Scott is always on a deep and secure edge, just like Olivier and Maxim.

I also disagree about the depth and power of V&M's edges. IMO power is a major reason why V&M beat DelSchoes in the FD in 2008 (it certainly wasn't transitions since V&M had none that season ;)). As for cleanness of the edges, just look at all the level 4 footworks V&M have collected.

V&M managed top 6 in their first senior Worlds. N&K did not achieve this until their 4th Worlds (Navka's 9th), DenSta until their 5th (Denkova's 9th).

In contrast, teams like A&P did it on their second try, K&O on their first (Krylova also won bronze in a first attempt with Fedorov), and G&P on their first (Platov's second). IMO these teams and Virtue/Moir are more naturally talented.

Maybe I miss the post about V/M being less worthy (which is absolutely ridiculous).They are extremely talented and your contra argument was great :respec:. About the lifts :at the time N/K, both D/S (Ah,those were the times)and most of the top teams were trying to be innovative the same way K/O,G/P,A/P,L/A did earlier and V/M, D/W ,P/B ,K/N and etc. did later and some of them still keep trying to make something different. it is just that nowadays the lifts are more acrobatic. Yet ,as we can see in the professional shows all those of the “old guard” are also capable of doing those lifts and it’s not like the male partners need extra help neither the girls are clinging for dear life on their headbands or whatever. All of them are as athletic and skilful as ever.:)))