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Cheylana
07-14-2012, 09:07 AM
Kulik won more against Yagudin, why Kulik went out so earlier? No, I am not says kulik should stay. But the reason of winning against others is not good enough
Yagudin was just beginning his senior international career when Kulik's amateur career ended, so that is not an apt comparison. Despite winning bronze at 1997 Worlds he was still the youngster and Russia's number two behind Kulik. Then Kulik won OGM and ran for the hills, while Yags stayed in and dominated.

On every competitive point Plush is ahead of both Lambiel and Dai. Even when he was old and practically doddering he came back and beat them in 2010 by large margins. If they are so great then why didn't they step up and beat him? I generally prefer Stephane and Dai's style but I prefer to look at objective facts rather than who I "like" and Plush's ability to deliver is far ahead of these two.

Also, while it is true that Dai's career isn't over yet, I'm hard pressed to believe he has enough time left in his career to approach, let alone overtake Plush's accomplishments.

senorita
07-14-2012, 09:38 AM
If you are persuasive or powerful enough, you may change people's opinion. ..If you do not want to be silent, you can claim your reasoned and logic arguement and let others do their own judgement.


is no matter how long you wrote and how many data/fact/opinion you list, this is a poll which can be based on personal taste and Mr. P will probably be voted out this round.:lol:

ok.

reflect
07-14-2012, 09:38 AM
Yagudin was just beginning his senior international career when Kulik's amateur career ended, so that is not an apt comparison. Despite winning bronze at 1997 Worlds he was still the youngster and Russia's number two behind Kulik. Then Kulik won OGM and ran for the hills, while Yags stayed in and dominated.

On every competitive point Plush is ahead of both Lambiel and Dai. Even when he was old and practically doddering he came back and beat them in 2010 by large margins. If they are so great then why didn't they step up and beat him? I generally prefer Stephane and Dai's style but I prefer to look at objective facts rather than who I "like" and Plush's ability to deliver is far ahead of these two.

Also, while it is true that Dai's career isn't over yet, I'm hard pressed to believe he has enough time left in his career to approach, let alone overtake Plush's accomplishments.


Well, you persuade me on this point. I wikied their DOB:
Kulik(May 1977) - Yagudin(Mar 1980) - Plushy(Nov 1982) - Lambiel(Apr 1985) - Takahashi(Mar 1986).

2~3 years difference is a big gap in FS. Kulik and Yagudin retired and Plushy stays. Takahashi still has chances. I think he will probably win against plushy if they continue to compete (actually it seems he hadn't many chances to compete with plushy after his growing up, which I think should be 06-07 or 05-06).

Anyway they can beat him in the poll without the same achievement. Because as someone has said, anyone can count the medals, then we really don't need a poll do we?

reflect
07-14-2012, 09:43 AM
ok.

So the logical conclusion is: even if you claim your arguement in long writing with data/fact/your opinion, you may still not stop somebody else making their judgement by other critera as artistry and personal taste and vote p out. That's it. simple and real and may come true in a few days:p

senorita
07-14-2012, 10:35 AM
^ I quoted your post because it is not like the 97 who voted plush, or 180 that voted Lambiel/ Daisuke actually posted here their reasons. The posts explaining each way are very few compared to the votes anyway.

yaya124
07-14-2012, 10:50 AM
Sorry what you wrote is too long for me to roll down the screen:P.

Truth is this is FSU where people enjoying plushy is the minority(maybe there are lots of people enjoying him somewhere else, but obviously not here); is racism and silly claim will be laugh at (at least I am laughing like this :lol:); is no matter how long you wrote and how many data/fact/opinion you list, this is a poll which can be based on personal taste and Mr. P will probably be voted out this round.:lol:


I know Plushenko will be voted out this round. Just you suggest that if one cannot keep silence then explain. I just did that, to make a statement of my opinion. but you do not need to read it.:lol:

reflect
07-14-2012, 10:58 AM
^ I quoted your post because it is not like the 97 who voted plush, or 180 that voted Lambiel/ Daisuke actually posted here their reasons. The posts explaining each way are very few compared to the votes anyway.

Actually I don't get what you mean. My post was replying 2 other poster. the first one's racism and silly comment is just :blah:
To the another, well, I just try to tell him/her even if he/she write an essay about someone's achievment, medals, longevity, artistry, etc, people still has right to vote as they will.
My opinion is the same throughout these polls. Personally I think we need objective evidence and criteria to make judgement. But since this is a poll not asking for these, then everyone can vote as they will. People can argue, but others can refuse to be persuaded.

reflect
07-14-2012, 11:01 AM
I know Plushenko will be voted out this round. Just you suggest that if one cannot keep silence then explain. I just did that, to make a statement of my opinion. but you do not need to read it.:lol:

Thank you for taking my suggestion!!! That why I only said "you can explain" but not said "others will read" in the previous post :D. It's very difficult to persuade others on internet, almost impossilbe, JMO.

senorita
07-14-2012, 11:27 AM
^Plu and Dai say relax (http://via.me/-30vxpjw).:)

Actually this photo is from today's PIW , I think Daisuke grew some cool hairstyle again:swoon:

lauravvv
07-14-2012, 03:42 PM
Hmmm....I think Carne Cruda was kind of avant-garde, and so was Red Cat in a way ;)I can't take 'Red Cat' seriously, really :D. You're sort of right about 'Carne Cruda', but perhaps it's still not avantagarde enough for some. Or probably people like lily want to see Stephane skating to (real) rock music, which I can't see him doing either.

lauravvv
07-14-2012, 03:55 PM
Yess! And so was Geissel Drama. Maybe he should use contemporary classical music to create something more sharp, even a little ugly, dramatic and painful. "My Body is a Cage" has some germs of it.Oh, sorry, I didn't see this post before. So, I was wrong about 'Carne Cruda' - you do think that it was avantgarde :). As for "ugly, dramatic and painful", I think we may yet see something with the latter two, but not the former. Never say never, but at least for now I don't see Stephane skating something really ugly. 'Freak Like Me' from 'Art on Ice' 2009 had hints of that, but Stepahane admitted to not even liking the program himself, as it was not his own idea for a change.


I never knew how much some people were obsessed with artistry.Well, yes, artistry is very important to me. First artistry, an then technique good enough to allow the skater to show his/her artistry at full potential. A special form of artistry (as skaters can do things on ice that can't be done just in dance on the floor) is what got me interested in figure skating in the first place. But I am also proud when my favourite skaters can do great things technically. And I am certainly not obsessed with artistry enough to vote Plushenko out before my favourite artistic skaters - Lambiel and Takahashi. I even thought that they should be voted out before Chan as well.

Cherub721
07-14-2012, 04:58 PM
On every competitive point Plush is ahead of both Lambiel and Dai. Even when he was old and practically doddering he came back and beat them in 2010 by large margins. If they are so great then why didn't they step up and beat him? I generally prefer Stephane and Dai's style but I prefer to look at objective facts rather than who I "like" and Plush's ability to deliver is far ahead of these two.


That's my thing too. If Lysacek (who was voted out early) could beat Plush, then why couldn't Takahashi and Lambiel beat both Lysacek and Plush, if they are so much better? I mean, I love Takahashi and Lambiel, but I think they have received plenty of credit for their wonderful talents in this poll, having outlasted other skaters who dominated over them such as Lysacek and Chan and to some extent Joubert. To even have them ahead of Plushy who has 3 Olympic medals, who has never lost to either of them in competition, would be a bit much, IMO.

I think you addressed Kulik vs. Yagudin well but I will point out that they only competed against each other for two senior seasons. Yagudin beat Kulik for bronze at 1997 Worlds, and Kulik beat Yagudin at the 1998 Olympics, so it's not like Kulik has this dominant record over Yags. In contrast, Plushy has competed against Takahashi in senior competition during 4 seasons and against Lambiel 6 seasons (spanning their career from up and comers to established veterans) and neither have ever beaten him once.

Vagabond
07-14-2012, 05:06 PM
That's my thing too. If Lysacek (who was voted out early) could beat Plush, then why couldn't Takahashi and Lambiel beat both Lysacek and Plush, if they are so much better?

I take it you were planning to vote Plushenko off before Lysacek, right?

;)

Cherub721
07-14-2012, 05:09 PM
I take it you were planning to vote Plushenko off before Lysacek, right?

;)

Yes, because Plushenko has never beaten Lysacek in competition. :P

Vagabond
07-14-2012, 05:13 PM
Exactly. The Final Four should have been Urmanov, Eldredge, Kulik, and Lysacek. ;)