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Vagabond
07-13-2012, 02:46 PM
The fact of the matter is that Takahashi has more votes than Plushenko at this point. But I suppose certain people don't care about objective facts and just react emotionally. :shuffle:

DORISPULASKI
07-13-2012, 03:24 PM
Stephane should go.

A lovely skater, but the axel technique is a killer for me, at this point.

Marco
07-13-2012, 04:16 PM
Voted for Plushenko.

I think my top three is Chan, Lambiel and Takahashi, with Lambiel winning.

casken
07-13-2012, 04:33 PM
Wow, this one is going to be a squeaker. :watch:

Holley Calmes
07-13-2012, 04:37 PM
It's going to get ugly! I knew the feathers would fly when it came down to a Yagudin versus Plushy battle, but it's already started.

Yeah, I really enjoy being put down by strangers and told how ignorant I am (in so many word) because I live in North America. Who do you guys think you're going to pursuade with that clever little argument? Insult people until they agree with you? Or is that not the desired result? :lol:

I would spend any amount of money and travel far (and I have) to watch Yagudin because he speaks to me through his skating, and he always touches my heart.

However, I am not going to be ugly here about Plushy. He is a great skater no doubt. He just doesn't speak to me at all. But hey-I don't care if he speaks to some of you out there! Why get your knickers in such a twist?

lauravvv
07-13-2012, 05:43 PM
Dai's turn.

Great musicality and great performer.
But not true artist like Lambiel.In Dai's defense, he is not a professional yet, like Stephane is. Stephane has become the true artist that he is while already being professional (until 'Ne me quitte pas' which he and Salome Brunner created when he retired for the first time, Stephane was a talented performer who performed Brunner's and Antonio Najarro's great choreograpies wonderfully), which means that he's had more opportunities to develop his artistry. It's quite difficult while competing - competition programs have their own requirements and restrictions, and there is little time left to create serious exhibition programs.


and why is Lambiel still in the list ? :shuffle:
he is the weakest link and was not throughout a dominant skater in his careerWe understood your opinion. No need to repeat it twice. But I also need to ask - when has Takahashi been a dominant skater? In 2010, when he won Worlds? But how do we know that he would have won if Plushenko and Lysacek had been there? It's still possible that he would have lost, although with a smaller margin than at Olympics. I agree that Dai could have won Worlds this year with different judging, but Chan was the one who got the gold, so apparently he is more dominant than Dai - at least in judge's minds.


Anyway, although I truly love Daisuke, I voted for him. In my mind he and Lambiel are quite equal overall - even if I look at it objectively. True, there are a few things that speak in Takahashi's favour, but also a few others that speak in Lambiel's favour. I wrote about that in the previous threads, so I won't repeat now. I just happen to love Stephane even more.

lauravvv
07-13-2012, 06:06 PM
Plushenko is receiving so many votes because he lacks artistic style and flair and entertainment value


Consistently landing jumps means nothing if you can't captivate an audience, IMO. Evgeni lacks originality and genuine passion and feeling and tends to bore people with his stale, soulless programs, much the same way that Lysacek and Chan does. :shuffle:I agree that Plushenko lacks artistry, if we compare him with Lambiel and Takahashi, or even Yagudin. But I can't say that he lacks style, even though many people don't like his style. Original he is certainly not. Still, I find it hard to agree about entertainment value, "can't captivate an audience" and "boring people" parts, seeing the ovations (among them many standing ovations) that he gets most of the time. It certainly means that he doesn't bore many people at all when they watch him live. As for "lacking passion" and "soulless" it can be said about some of his programs, but not all. He just shows soul and passion differently than some other skaters. We can't know how much of that is genuine, and how much just trying to be artistic, but - we don't know.

In any case, if Plushenko is voted out, it won't be by my hand. His achievements, longevity and influence on the sport are undeniable, plus, he does have charisma. And that, in my mind, raises him above my favourite skaters - Lambiel and Takahashi.

michiruwater
07-13-2012, 06:17 PM
I don't see why people thought it would get ugly when it was Yagudin vs. Plushenko. I think it's fairly obvious that Yags is going to win by a landslide in the final poll against whomever. As he should.

lily
07-13-2012, 06:28 PM
In Dai's defense, he is not a professional yet, like Stephane is. Stephane has become the true artist that he is while already being professional (until 'Ne me quitte pas' which he and Salome Brunner created when he retired for the first time, Stephane was a talented performer who performed Brunner's and Antonio Najarro's great choreograpies wonderfully), which means that he's had more opportunities to develop his artistry. It's quite difficult while competing - competition programs have their own requirements and restrictions, and there is little time left to create serious exhibition programs.


Heh, but I can't see significant artistry difference between Lambiel's competitive years and now when he's a professional. He was a true artist already back then. For me some of his pro programs are even more boring and less inventive than competitive ones. They are always beautiful to watch but he sometimes does some "recycling" of previous images.

Jaana
07-13-2012, 06:34 PM
In my opinion, Kulik is much better than Yagudin. I know I am in the minority but I have always thought Yags was inferior to both Plushenko and Kulik.

Yes, I agree! Yagudin was though extremely consistent in his jumping. The jumps were mostly not beautiful and without flow, but he got the job done.

lauravvv
07-13-2012, 06:57 PM
Heh, but I can't see significant artistry difference between Lambiel's competitive years and now when he's a professional. He was a true artist already back then. For me some of his pro programs are even more boring and less inventive than competitive ones. They are always beautiful to watch but he sometimes does some "recycling" of previous images.Either you have only seen the few similar ones by coincidence, or you can't see the difference because you have no knowledge of the idea behind each program. Which is just natural, of course - only fans know things like that.

As for similar programs - for instance, Lambiel has three jazzy programs - 'Tainted Love', 'Let the good times rolll' and 'Don't Stop The Music'. The first two are similar indeed - just easy "feel good" programs (I don't mean easy in terms of choreography). But 'Don't Stop The Music' is darker, deeper and more serious, although on the surfice it may look like another "sexy, dandy" program. Even the music is a bit different - it's a modern jazz take on a pop song, not a jazz oldie. Then there are programs like 'La Traviata' and 'Rigoletto' - they have some similar choreo indeed, particularly the hand movements, but the images are different. 'La Traviata' is just all light and romantic, while 'Rigoletto' makes fun of the Duke of Mantua (a character from the opera). Then, his 'Rachmaninov' program, while also with classical music, is very different from those two programs, or from anything that he's done before. To some, 'Bring me to life' and this year's 'My Body Is a Cage' might look similar - both done with dramatic contemporary music, but the images and ideas behind each are different. Then there is 'Ne me quitte pas' which is like nothing that Stephane has done before or after. Not to mention the "pop" programs done for 'Art on Ice' - especially 'Gimme More/Sexy Back' (Spears and Timberlake) and 'Freak Like me' (Sugababes) come to mind. On the first glance, they are similar, but, again, the idea behind each one is different, and they're also different from his other programs. And so on. In the end, that is what makes Stephane an artist and different from many other skaters - most of his programs have some idea, some meaning in them which is his own vision. Naturally, most people can't see see that, especially from seeing the program just one or few times - they see just the beautiful surfice (grace, elegance, choreography, beautiful spins). But it's there. We, fans, know it, as Stephane usually tells us about his ideas quite readily :). Plus, if you look more closely, you can see something different an new almost in each program - whether it's the style, different music, image, something in the choreo, a different kind of musicality, and so on.

Of course, you can say that it's the same with me and other skaters - probably I just don't see the meaning behind their programs, although it's there. Might be true, but I can honestly say that I try to watch very carefully - and from some skaters I get the feeling that they're just doing what the choreographer told them, trying to embody the choreographer's idea with more or less success, while with others I see that they really know what they're doing and have a personal approach and attitude to it. But there are very few from whom I get that they have their own ideas and vision (I don't mean just putting something personal into what the choreographer has offered) - I think that Takahashi is very close to that, but not there yet. Of course, a lot depends on what those ideas are like :shuffle:. But that's another theme.

love_skate2011
07-13-2012, 07:23 PM
Stephane should go.

A lovely skater, but the axel technique is a killer for me, at this point.

I was shocked to see Lambiel is still here, should have been voted off on 4th round. If you are talking artistry that many so associate with Lambiel then Dai needs to be voted off

DaiKozOda
07-13-2012, 07:27 PM
Let me try to convince some of you to save Plushenko in this round lol

In what concerns big medals:
3 Olympic medals - One gold, two silvers;
5 medals at worlds - 3 golds, 1 silver and 1 bronze;
10 medals at Euros - 7 golds, 3 silvers;
7 medals at GPF - 4 golds, 2 silvers, 1 bronze;

First ever skater to:
land a quadruple toe-loop, triple toe-loop, double loop combination;
land a quadruple toe-loop, triple toe-loop, triple loop combination;

He is one of the few guys to have ever done a biellmann spin.
He was just 15 or 16 (can't remember exactly) when he received his first 6.0, making him the youngest guy ever to have been awarded with a perfect score.

If Plushenko hadn't started to challenge Yagudin so early the latter probably hadn't left Mishin to go to Tarasova. Now, that would have been a tragedy. :D If Plushenko hadn't started to raise the technical content in jumps, Yagudin probably hadn't tried so much as well. :D
They pushed each other.

Plushenko has a style of his own. He gave us stuff like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEJXkfMYTX4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7aGZXEs4dIE&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WszjpwnA1z4&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6GTyuR_AopM&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0k-yMlGvlW0

blue_idealist
07-13-2012, 07:29 PM
I'm not much of a Plushenko fan, but him leaving NOW would be even sadder than Elvis Stojko getting voted out when he did. I'm glad you posted that stuff, DaiKozOda.

lily
07-13-2012, 07:35 PM
Either you have only seen the few similar ones by coincidence, or you can't see the difference because you have no knowledge of the idea behind each program. Which is just natural, of course - only fans know things like that.

As for similar programs - for instance, Lambiel has three jazzy progarms - 'Tainted Love', 'Let the good times rolll' and 'Don't Stop The Music'. The first two are similar indeed - just easy "feel good" programs (I don't mean easy in terms of choreography). But 'Don't Stop The Music' is darker, deeper and more serious, although on the surfice it may look like another "sexy, dandy" program. Even the music is a bit different - it's a modern jazz take on a pop song, not a jazz oldie. Then there are programs like 'La Traviata' and 'Rigoletto' - they have some similar choreo indeed, particularly the hand movements, but the images are different. 'La Traviata' is just all light and romantic, while 'Rigoletto' makes fun of the Duke of Mantua (a character from the opera) - so, the images are different. Then, his 'Rachmaninov' program, while also with classical music, is very different from those two programs, or from anything that he's done before. To some, 'Bring me to life' and this year's 'My Body Is a Cage' might look similar - both done with dramatic contemporary music, but the images and ideas behind each are different. Then there is 'Ne me quitte pas' which is like nothing that Stephane has done before or after. Not to mention the "pop" programs done for 'Art on Ice' - especially 'Gimme More/Sexy Back' (Spears and Timberlake) and 'Freak Like me' (Sugababes) come to mind. On the first glance, they are similar, but, again, the idea behind each one is different, and they're also different from his other programs. And so on. In the end, that is what makes Stephane an artist and different from many other skaters - most of his programs have some idea, some meaning in them which is his own vision. Naturally, most people can't see see that, especially from seeing the program just one or few times - they see just the beautiful surfice (grace, elegance, choreography, beautiful spins). But it's there. We, fans, know it, as Stephane usually tells us about his ideas quite readily :).

Of course, you can say that it's the same with me and other skaters - probably I just don't see the meaning behind their programs, although it's there. Might be true, but I can honestly say that I try to watch very carefully - and from some skaters I get the feeling that they're just doing what the choreographer told them, trying to embody the choreographer's idea with more or less success, while with others I see that they really know what they're doing and have a personal approach and attitude to it. But there are very few from whom I get that they have their own ideas and vision (I don't mean just putting something personal into what the choreographer has offered) - I think that Takahashi is very close to that, but not there yet. Of course, a lot depends on what those ideas are like :shuffle:. But that's another theme.

I consider myself as a Stéphane fan and have seen his every single program&fluff etc since 1997 when he did his first big stage appearance at Lausanne Worlds.
You explain very beautifully and it's interesting to learn your opinion and view to Stephane's programs. In many things I agree with you and I also said in my previous post that "sometimes" and "some".

Anyway I think that his competitive programs, such as "Truman show", "King Arthur", "Dralion", "4 seasons", of course "Poeta", "Otono porteno", "Tell", "Traviata" etc etc are no less interesting than his later creations "NMQP", "Don't Stop the Music", "Lets the good times roll", Rachmaninoff prelude, "My body is a cage" - if to mention the best.