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lily
07-16-2012, 05:14 PM
But objectively... in which is Yagudin so much greater than Plushenko? He even don't have more medals.

judgejudy27
07-16-2012, 05:17 PM
But objectively... in which is Yagudin so much greater than Plushenko? He even don't have more medals.

Objectively speaking he won more 1 more World or Olympic event despite a career that was about half as long. He also dominated their rivalry when it came to World or Olympic events, coming out ahead 4 times out of 5.

senorita
07-16-2012, 05:26 PM
^ I don't really disagree with what you say but I don't know if anyone expected plushenko to win yagudin at 15 years old or even 16 at worlds...plushenko entered 2 years later the seniors than yagudin, he is almost 3 years younger and by the time anyone could spell his name yagudin was already world champion, world medalist from 1997 and 5th in Nagano.
Worlds 2000 plushenko had the biggest splatfest ever and was off podium anyway, he didn't lose only to Yags.

lily
07-16-2012, 05:31 PM
Objectively speaking he won more 1 more World or Olympic event despite a career that was about half as long. He also dominated their rivalry when it came to World or Olympic events, coming out ahead 4 times out of 5.

May be but they still seem pretty equal for me. Also their skating style...

judgejudy27
07-16-2012, 05:39 PM
^ I don't really disagree with what you say but I don't know if anyone expected plushenko to win yagudin at 15 years old or even 16 at worlds...plushenko entered 2 years later the seniors than yagudin, he is almost 3 years younger and by the time anyone could spell his name yagudin was already world champion, world medalist from 1997 and 5th in Nagano.
Worlds 2000 plushenko had the biggest splatfest ever and was off podium anyway, he didn't lose only to Yags.

Eliminate the 98 and 99 Worlds if you wish. That still would have Yagudin up 2-1 in World or Olympic competition. Yagudin's loss coming when he had a major injury and had no chance of getting through a long program cleanly. As for the meltdown at the 2000 Worlds, that just shows Yagudin is a stronger competitor than Plushenko which is Plushenko's main advantage vs most people. So in addition to being the stronger skater (to most) he also has the edge as a competitor too, and managing more World or Olympic titles combined in a much shorter career to boot, leaving no reason Plushenko should come ahead really.

That said I am surprised Plushenko is going out this early.

Cherub721
07-16-2012, 05:47 PM
But objectively... in which is Yagudin so much greater than Plushenko?

I see your point. Many of the same criticisms that apply to Plushy should apply to Yags: greater emphasis on jumping and consistency, less on transitions and spins, and very similar style of footwork. So I don't see why Plush would go out fourth and Yagudin would win.

DaiKozOda
07-16-2012, 05:47 PM
Objectively speaking he won more 1 more World or Olympic event despite a career that was about half as long. He also dominated their rivalry when it came to World or Olympic events, coming out ahead 4 times out of 5.

If my memory isn't betraying me, Plushenko was injured during 2001/2002 season which led him to miss the euros. In the OG he was screwed by the fall in the quad in the short but still he was able to pull from 4th to 2nd in the long. If it wasn't for that we would probably had a different result or, at least, a much closer competition.
Yagudin got his first medal at worlds when Plushenko wasn't even a senior yet.
Yagudin competed in two olympics. In 98 he was 5th (suffering from a flu) and in 02 he was first.
Plushenko was left out of the russian olympic team in 98. Remember that the russians had Kulik and a hope to get Urmanov to recover in time (which in the end didn't happened and helped Yagudin get a trip to Nagano). Plushenko was 2nd in 02, 1st in 06 and got a "golden" silver in 10. So, overall, Plushenko has a better olympic record than Yagudin.
In what concerns World Championships, we need to have in mind that Plushenko is younger than Yagudin and in 99 (his second senior year) he was already challenging him.

If you take in mind the individual medal account of the two, including major events such as OG, Worlds, GPF, Grand prix events, this is what you get:
Yagudin
OG: 1 gold = 1 medal
Worlds: 4 golds, 1 silver, 1 bronze = 6 medals
GPF: 2 golds, 1 silver = 3 medals
Euros: 3 golds, 2 silvers = 5 medals

Plushenko
OG: 1 gold, 2 silvers = 3 medals;
Worlds: 3 golds, 1 silver, 1 bronze = 5 medals
GPF: 4 golds, 2 silvers, 1 bronze = 7 medals
Euros: 7 golds, 3 silvers = 10 medals

Grand Prix Events total:
Yagudin
Gold: 12
Silver: 2
Bronze: 2

Plushenko
Gold: 18
Silver: 3
Bronze: 0

Gosh, sorry for getting carried away with this lol

Cherub721
07-16-2012, 05:51 PM
^These are the types of arguments that I was expecting in the final round, so may as well make them now. ;) :(

I do think Yags is better overall than Plush due to his record at Worlds. With 3 Olympic medals, 7 European titles, and 9 National titles, I would expect Plush to have a lot more World titles then he does. And I know it has to do with retirements and injuries, etc, but at the end of the day it is what you put out there, and I was disappointed he didn't go in 2006 and 2010 cause I thought he would've won either in a landslide. Also, Yagudin's medal record at Worlds is 100%, while Plushy failed to medal in I think 1999.

DaiKozOda
07-16-2012, 05:54 PM
...and very similar style of footwork. .

:40beers:

Tottaly agree that Yagudin and Plushenko had a very very similar style of footwork.
I also think it was Yagudin and Plushenko that set the standard for others to improve and develop the footwork sequences.

judgejudy27
07-16-2012, 05:56 PM
If my memory isn't betraying me, Plushenko was injured during 2001/2002 season which led him to miss the euros. In the OG he was screwed by the fall in the quad in the short but still he was able to pull from 4th to 2nd in the long. If it wasn't for that we would probably had a different result or, at least, a much closer competition.
Yagudin got his first medal at worlds when Plushenko wasn't even a senior yet.
Yagudin competed in two olympics. In 98 he was 5th (suffering from a flu) and in 02 he was first.
Plushenko was left out of the russian olympic team in 98. Remember that the russians had Kulik and a hope to get Urmanov to recover in time (which in the end didn't happened and helped Yagudin get a trip to Nagano). Plushenko was 2nd in 02, 1st in 06 and got a "golden" silver in 10. So, overall, Plushenko has a better olympic record than Yagudin.
In what concerns World Championships, we need to have in mind that Plushenko is younger than Yagudin and in 99 (his second senior year) he was already challenging him.


Even if he is younger than Yagudin, Plushenko still had a much longer career and many more chances than Yagudin to win World or Olympic events and STILL ended up with less. Yagudin had to retire at 21. Plushenko had opportunities to compete as long as he wanted, did retire for awhile at 23, still older than Yagudin was when he was forced out of the sport. Yagudin winning 4 Worlds and the Olympics in a 4 year span (only missing out on winning one Worlds when he was 2nd) is also a more dominant streak than anything Plushenko produced and he was competing against Plushenko himself that whole time, whereas Plushenko at the height of his dominance was competing only against poor jumper Lambiel, Buttle, and Joubert.

As for the 2002 Olympics Plushenko's fall in the short program made 0 difference. He was beaten soundly in the long program, not even getting 1 first place vote. Yagudin also beat a healthy and flawless Plushenko at the GP final earlier when Yagudin didnt skate nearly as well as SLC.



I was disappointed he didn't go in 2006 and 2010 cause I thought he would've won either in a landslide.

Based on what? Maybe in 2006, but in 2010 Takahashi's winning performances at Worlds would have beaten either Lysacek or Plushenko's performances from Vancouver. Unless you are presuming Plushenko was certain to skate much better than Vancouver, which there is no reason to assume that I see, he would not have won Worlds.

DaiKozOda
07-16-2012, 05:59 PM
Also, Yagudin's medal record at Worlds is 100%, while Plushy failed to medal in I think 1999.

Plushenko was the silver medallist in 99. It was in Nice 2000 that he screwed big time and finished 4th when he had it all in his hand to win.

But you're absolutely right: Yagudin medalled in every single World championship he entered (1997-2002).

I would also like to add to my previous post that Plushenko couldn't go to Worlds in 2002 because of the same injury that forced him to pull out of the euros that season.
But in fairness I also need to say that in Vancouver 2001, Yagudin had a foot injury.

lily
07-16-2012, 06:00 PM
I see your point. Many of the same criticisms that apply to Plushy should apply to Yags: greater emphasis on jumping and consistency, less on transitions and spins, and very similar style of footwork. So I don't see why Plush would go out fourth and Yagudin would win.

That's exactly what I thought!

DaiKozOda
07-16-2012, 06:10 PM
As for the 2002 Olympics Plushenko's fall in the short program made 0 difference. He was beaten soundly in the long program, not even getting 1 first place vote.


I think it made a difference. In 2001/2001 season, Plushenko was unbeaten. In 2001/2002, he wasn't at his best physically due to injury that caused him to miss euros and worlds. That fall led to a sense of frailty and I remember some commentators mentioning that. But my point is: if Plushenko hadn't had that fall in the quad, he would probably had been much closer to Yagudin in the SP if not first.
I would like to state that I have absolutely no doubts that Yagudin won in SLC fair and square.

(Isn't it nice to think about all the probabilities? lool)

My final argument:
Plushenko has something that Yagudin didn't even come close to get: an eurovision victory :D :P

Jaana
07-16-2012, 06:11 PM
I´d suppose that if Lambiel and Takahashi fans unite, they can vote Yagudin out in next round...

Zemgirl
07-16-2012, 06:17 PM
I think it's silly to judge Yagudin for not being an IJS-friendly skater when he spent his entire career under 6.0. This criticism is more appropriate in Plushenko's case, but I still feel he did enough to make it through. Transitions are but one component out of five, and I think sometimes people forget that. But others obviously disagree.

And since Plushenko will soon be eliminated, this is my opportunity to address Plush vs. Yags, so here goes: Yagudin and Plushenko both have amazing competitive records and their rivalry demanded the best of both of them and pushed men's skating forward. I give Plushenko a lot of credit for his longevity and his strength as both a competitor and a performer, even if his style did not speak to me personally. However... SLC was the pinnacle of the Plushenko-Yagudin rivalry and was probably the biggest test both faced in their careers, and only one of them rose to the occasion. Yags won the one that mattered, and for me he wins overall. A pity the hip injury forced him out of the sport; who knows how he might developed as he matured.