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heckles
07-18-2012, 03:25 AM
I actually think there's less MSG, corn syrup, hormones, artificial coloring, trans fats, etc, than there was back in say, the 60s and 70s.

I suspect the usage in the US is higher but possibly less likely to be openly disclosed. For example, MSG can be listed under 42 euphemisms such as "yeast extract" so that the typical consumer doesn't recognize it. Maybe the Whole Foods crowd is somewhat aware of what to avoid, but your average Piggly Wiggly consumer may not be so savvy.

MacMadame
07-18-2012, 04:07 AM
But that doesn't mean they wouldn't weigh less if they didn't eat crap.
But, if they are a normal weight, why would they want to weigh less?

And I still think it isn't true. Our bodies have a set point, a weight they want to be at, and they fight to be at that weight.



How old is your son? I know of many, many young men in their early 20's who are very thin and lanky no matter what junk they eat. They usually fill out as they approach their 30s.
Well I hope he fills out. But not as much as Mr. Mac did when he got older. ;)

overedge
07-18-2012, 04:49 AM
But, if they are a normal weight, why would they want to weigh less?


I didn't say they wanted to weigh less. I said nothing about their motivations for eating whatever they eat. When I'm talking about "diet" I mean whatever kind of food someone consumes, not "diet" as in planning food consumption to lose weight.

If someone is eating junk food with all its "extra" calories, they are more likely than not going to gain more weight than if they are eating healthy food with less calories. The amount of weight might be relative depending on their body type, but I really don't see how you can argue that junk food doesn't cause more weight gain than healthy food.

Japanfan
07-18-2012, 09:04 AM
If someone is eating junk food with all its "extra" calories, they are more likely than not going to gain more weight than if they are eating healthy food with less calories. The amount of weight might be relative depending on their body type, but I really don't see how you can argue that junk food doesn't cause more weight gain than healthy food.

In general, I agree with you - healthy eating makes for more conscious eating usually, which includes an awareness of weight/calories. But it depends on what particular 'junk' and 'healthy' food you eat to a certain extent and how much of it you eat. Avocados and mangoes are healthy, but fairly high in calories. Cheese is arguably healthy too. Olive oil is healthy, but it is a fat. Those soy milk drinks 'So Nice' and 'So Good' are named because they are indeed tasty - with lots of sugar and calories.

In contrast, a bag of microwave popcorn can be relatively low calorie.

I know someone who is a rather plump health nut and vegetarian (dairy eating). She is quite healthy but rather plump. She makes her own breakfast cereal and takes a ton of supplements, but her consumption of nutella and other health snacks like baked potato chips/cheesies could be part of the reason, though she also doesn't exercise. And she both puts a lot of energy/attention into her food, as well as enjoying it.

A person who eats junk food may be less focused on food - just eat when hungry, for example, whatever is at hand.

MacMadame
07-18-2012, 04:44 PM
I don't think studies really support the idea that eating healthy food helps you weigh less. For the most part, people weigh what their set point is. There are junk food diets that people lose weight on and there are plenty of people who eat healthy food but too much of it. The reality is that we gain weight when we eat more calories than we burn. And you can do that with any kind of food.

Anita18
07-18-2012, 06:14 PM
I don't think studies really support the idea that eating healthy food helps you weigh less. For the most part, people weigh what their set point is. There are junk food diets that people lose weight on and there are plenty of people who eat healthy food but too much of it. The reality is that we gain weight when we eat more calories than we burn. And you can do that with any kind of food.
Do you have any theories as to why someone's set point would be so unhealthily high? And why obese-level set points seem to be getting more and more common?

The only option I can see is that their grandparents' set points wanted to be obese-level high as well, but for some reason or another they never had the chance to eat that much food, and thus were "starving" all their lives. Do you think that's accurate?

I mean, set points the way you describe it have to be genetic, and I can't think of a reason why so many people would be obese nowadays according to that theory unless they inherited it from somewhere. I mean, I have come across quite a number of people who are overweight despite everything they do, and I believe that some people are meant to weigh more than others. But there's quite a difference between overweight and morbidly obese, and more and more people are getting morbidly obese.

danceronice
07-18-2012, 07:00 PM
Do you have any theories as to why someone's set point would be so unhealthily high? And why obese-level set points seem to be getting more and more common?

The only option I can see is that their grandparents' set points wanted to be obese-level high as well, but for some reason or another they never had the chance to eat that much food, and thus were "starving" all their lives. Do you think that's accurate?

I mean, set points the way you describe it have to be genetic, and I can't think of a reason why so many people would be obese nowadays according to that theory unless they inherited it from somewhere. I mean, I have come across quite a number of people who are overweight despite everything they do, and I believe that some people are meant to weigh more than others. But there's quite a difference between overweight and morbidly obese, and more and more people are getting morbidly obese.

People have more and more access to calorically-dense foods and less reason to do heavy physical labor. Our genes date back tens of thousands of years and are programmed to seek out and store fat. They had much less chance to do it, and usually didn't live long enough to get obese (or have diet-related diseases.) Our grandparents DIDN'T, generally speaking, have the chance to eat the amount of food or the TYPES of food that most people have access to today nor were they culturally-conditioned to eat huge portions. It's not something that just happens in the first world--look at Polynesian cultures where being large is a desirable trait-people seek out and eat high-fat, high-calorie foods and gain weight when they do, even without those foods being "fake."

Our bodies are VERY good at storing fat. Given half a chance, most will. Some will go overboard. A few are not, and tend to be superthin. That is probably ALSO more common now than it used to be, as that particular trait in our ancestors would have been detrimental-someone who couldn't gain weight would be more prone to sickness, more susceptible to food shortage-related starvation, and females with very low body fat are less likely to successfully reproduce. We can get around those problems now. It's harder to get around our bodies being good at storing fat if the society encourages sedentary lifestyles. (Though we ARE better at keeping people with both underweight- and overweight-related diseases alive so the general lifespan is still longer.)

manleywoman
07-18-2012, 07:02 PM
In contrast, a bag of microwave popcorn can be relatively low calorie.

Low-calorie, maybe. But not healthy.

danceronice
07-18-2012, 09:49 PM
Low-calorie, maybe. But not healthy.

Unless you get the kind loaded with extra butter/fake butter and salt, it's not UNhealthy either. It's technically a whole grain and it's low fat, and if you leave off the fake flavors, not that high-sodium, either.

Could you live on it? Of course not. Is it UNhealthy? Not especially.

Japanfan
07-18-2012, 11:20 PM
Unless you get the kind loaded with extra butter/fake butter and salt, it's not UNhealthy either. It's technically a whole grain and it's low fat, and if you leave off the fake flavors, not that high-sodium, either.


Isn't it all loaded with chemicals? The few times I've had microwave popcorn its tasted heavily of chemicals. No comparison to making it on the stove the old-fashioned way, which I still do.

olympic
07-18-2012, 11:47 PM
^ Popcorn? I love popcorn. But my BF hates the smell of it. Thus, I only eat it when he's away. Otherwise, I never hear the end of it.

heckles
07-19-2012, 12:11 AM
It's not something that just happens in the first world--look at Polynesian cultures where being large is a desirable trait-people seek out and eat high-fat, high-calorie foods and gain weight when they do, even without those foods being "fake."

That's interesting, because I've generally seen Polynesians, especially Native Hawaiians and Samoans, blaming their obesity issues on whitey's introduction of processed food, especially Spam, to their shores.

Pretty jealous, however, that Hawaiians can still buy fried pies at McDonald's. The baked ones on the mainland are so lame.

MacMadame
07-19-2012, 04:25 AM
Do you have any theories as to why someone's set point would be so unhealthily high? And why obese-level set points seem to be getting more and more common?
I suspect you haven't read the whole thread because I've gone on about this quite a bit. :lol:

Dieting, in people genetically programmed to be obese, causes their set point to rise as a reaction to something called the Famine Effect. The diet of most in Western Society is full of high calorie food so lots more people are getting 10, 20 even 30 pounds overweight without paying attention and then going on diets. For those with the right genetic tendencies, going on a diet triggers a lifetime of weight struggles.



I mean, set points the way you describe it have to be genetic,
Actually the set point isn't genetic. What is genetic is the tendency to react to calorie restriction by regaining all the weight plus 10 pounds. That changes your set point.

So, you have someone whose natural eating put them 10 or even 20 pounds over what they think they should be. So they go on a diet. They lose the weight but then they gain it back plus about 10 pounds. Now their set point is 10 pound higher. They get disgusted with themselves -- how did I 'let myself' get fat again? I can't believe I 'went back to my old habits.' So they diet again. And this time maybe they don't lose quite all the weight they wanted but they lose a lot of it. But then their body raises their set point and they gain it all back plus another 10 pounds.

If you do this enough, you can "diet" your way up to 200+.

Even if you don't diet enough to get up to 200-300 pounds by raising your set point 10 pounds at a time, at some point, for many, the body goes a bit nuts after a while and just continually raises the set point so you gradually gain weight even if you've stopped actively dieting.

The Famine Effect, btw, tends to kick in around 20-25 pounds lost which is why a lot of people who go on a diet often quit at around that point. Because that's when ghrelin rises dramatically and the body starts fighting back against the loss.


Isn't it all loaded with chemicals? The few times I've had microwave popcorn its tasted heavily of chemicals. No comparison to making it on the stove the old-fashioned way, which I still do.
Well microwave popcorn is a processed food. But you can make regular popcorn yourself and it's actually reasonably healthy as you note. Heck, even the microwave stuff is healthier than a lot of other choices people make instead because they are convinced popcorn is evil. :P

MacMadame
07-19-2012, 04:26 AM
Pretty jealous, however, that Hawaiians can still buy fried pies at McDonald's. The baked ones on the mainland are so lame.

When I lived in HI, you could get things like ramen soup at McDonald's. Do they still have stuff like that on the menu?

heckles
07-19-2012, 05:12 AM
When I lived in HI, you could get things like ramen soup at McDonald's. Do they still have stuff like that on the menu?

Yes, they call it saimin, and it's generally served with Spam or some similarly processed meat floating at top.