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Cherub721
07-10-2012, 07:42 PM
I think a lot of people simply don't merely take accomplishments as the be all and end all of a skater's being. If you see past the medals, it's not hard to see why many people think Takahashi and Lambiel are better skaters than Plushenko.

So is anyone considering voting Yagudin out before Takahashi and Lambiel? (Serious question). Yags is closer to Plushy when it comes to spins, footwork, and transitions than he is to those guys. (I think Yags is more musical and has better P/E though).

Vagabond
07-10-2012, 09:05 PM
So is anyone considering voting Yagudin out before Takahashi and Lambiel? (Serious question). Yags is closer to Plushy when it comes to spins, footwork, and transitions than he is to those guys. (I think Yags is more musical and has better P/E though).

Not before the last round. If, however, either Takahashi or Lambiel makes it to the Final Two, I'll have to think long and hard about that. Yagudin never competed under CoP, so there is a bit of apples-and-oranges going on. Yes, there was a bit of apples-and-oranges going on with comparing Urmanov, Eldredge, and Stojko to Chan, but that was with radically different grades of fruit. :2faced:

kwanette
07-10-2012, 09:58 PM
I almost agree. Except that for me Lambiel was not/is not any less watchable. Perhaps he was a bit less "watchable'' than Dai is today when he won his two worlds, but that's natural, since he was 19 and 20 then, but Dai is 26 now. Later though, despite less successful skates and competitions, Stephane became at least equal to the current Daisuke - like here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iahKR6aa2d0) :).

And, now, watching also Stephane's exhibition programs, I realize that he is probably an even more versatile performer than Dai. That all imho, of course.

I like Lambiel..a lot. He has charisma and talent. I just happen to enjoy Dai more than any other skater on the planet..and have since about 2005. I find him to be totally mesmerizing.

senorita
07-11-2012, 12:36 AM
I think a lot of people simply don't merely take accomplishments as the be all and end all of a skater's being. If you see past the medals, it's not hard to see why many people think Takahashi and Lambiel are better skaters than Plushenko.
You can count other facts too, like his new jumping combos, his young age competing, his flexibility, the longevity, the comebacks, the charisma etc. But Lambiel and Takahashi are better skaters indeed and in terms of skating they are better skaters than Yagudin too. But Plushenko and Yagudin were better competitors. If you see past medals, Abt was the better skater too.

judgejudy27
07-11-2012, 01:42 AM
If you see past medals, Abt was the better skater too.

:rofl:

Cherub721
07-11-2012, 02:16 AM
^It's true though; going on skating skills alone, Abt was better than Yagudin and Plushenko. If the criteria is to take away medals and jumping ability, then he's up there.

I still think it would be interesting to do a non-WC/OGM survivor with Sandhu, Abt, Savoie, Klimkin, Abbot, etc. Any interest in that when this game is over?

lauravvv
07-11-2012, 11:01 AM
I like Lambiel..a lot. He has charisma and talent. I just happen to enjoy Dai more than any other skater on the planet..and have since about 2005. I find him to be totally mesmerizing.The same for me. Only the other way round ;).


I still think it would be interesting to do a non-WC/OGM survivor with Sandhu, Abt, Savoie, Klimkin, Abbot, etc. Any interest in that when this game is over?Yes, certainly. I haven't seen enough from those skaters (except Abbott) to vote myself yet, but it will be very interesting to see how other people rate them. I'll also try to watch more videos of their performances then.

briancoogaert
07-11-2012, 11:10 AM
^It's true though; going on skating skills alone, Abt was better than Yagudin and Plushenko. If the criteria is to take away medals and jumping ability, then he's up there.
Abt : slow with a lot of 2-foot skating, but very good looking. :P

judgejudy27
07-11-2012, 06:21 PM
^It's true though; going on skating skills alone, Abt was better than Yagudin and Plushenko. If the criteria is to take away medals and jumping ability, then he's up there.

?!? No that absolutely is not true. Especialy regarding Yagudin. Yagudin did everything better than Abt. Much better choreography, better footwork, more musicality, better performance skills, more speed and power, more polished and much better lines (Tracy Wilson said she loved the rawness of Abt's skating but it was jerky and very unrefined, I concur), way stronger jumps obviously. Compare their interpretations to the Gladiator in 2001, Abt's even if he did the jumps looked like an amateurish program next to Yagudin's masterful work and bigger than life performances. I dont even see the better skating skills really, but even if he did it wouldnt make him better, that is like saying Yuka Sato is better than Michelle Kwan since her skating skills are better (which they are, even though Michelle's are also excellent).

Why on earth take away jumping ability either. It is one thing to say take away medals and just look at the skater, but actual jumping ability (not just consistency, although that too) is a huge part of being a "better" skater. Are we now saying skating skills are all that matter to who is a better skater, and jumps are in some seperate category that have no value to the level of a skater, only results, while every other aspect of the sport- spins, footwork, interpretation, line, expression, spirals, are in some netherland out of nowhere.

Would a clean Abt ever beat a clean Yagudin or Plushenko? Of course not. Would anyone ever saw he was robbed or deserved to either. Again, of course not. The 2002 Europeans is not an example as Yagudin was very subpar in his LP there, which is the only reason Abt who gave the performance of his life that day had some wuzrobbed cries, although to most who know the sport still not even merited ones.



Abt : slow with a lot of 2-foot skating, but very good looking. :P

Exactly, he wasnt that good period. I think some are confusing his prettiness for his skating ability somehow. I dont even see how lunging long crossovers (often jerky and clunky) represent great skating skills either.

Jaana
07-11-2012, 06:25 PM
I think a lot of people simply don't merely take accomplishments as the be all and end all of a skater's being. If you see past the medals, it's not hard to see why many people think Takahashi and Lambiel are better skaters than Plushenko.

And also definetely better than Yagudin, in my opinion.

Zemgirl
07-11-2012, 06:29 PM
?!? No that absolutely is not true. Especialy regarding Yagudin. Yagudin did everything better than Abt. Much better choreography, better footwork, more musicality, better performance skills, more speed and power, way stronger jumps obviously. I dont even see the better skating skills really, but even if he did it wouldnt make him better, that is like saying Yuka Sato is better than Michelle Kwan since her skating skills are better (which they are, even though Michelle's are also excellent).
I adored Yagudin back in the day, but he most certainly does not have better musicality than Alexander Abt.

judgejudy27
07-11-2012, 06:32 PM
I adored Yagudin back in the day, but he most certainly does not have better musicality than Alexander Abt.

Like I said compare their interpretations of the Gladiator in 2001 and Abt's is a complete joke next to Yagudin's. One makes you feel like you are out on the battlefield literally, as Beverly Smith a Canadian reporter said you could see blood out there while he performed it, while Abt's would have been a good time for a bathroom break. Even Stojko's Gladiator program that year was more interesting, good grief. Abt better musicality, LOL! When did Abt ever have programs that were performed like Yagudin's Gladiator in 2001, Yagudin's Winter in 2002, Yagudin's Man In the Iron Mask in 2002, Yagudin's 1999 short program.

shine
07-11-2012, 06:33 PM
?!? No that absolutely is not true. Especialy regarding Yagudin. Yagudin did everything better than Abt. Much better choreography, better footwork, more musicality, better performance skills, more speed and power, more polished and much better lines (Tracy Wilson said she loved the rawness of Abt's skating but it was jerky and very unrefined, I concur), way stronger jumps obviously.

What exactly was so impressive about Yagudin's footwork? All those three turns and mohawks? Granted, the demand of the more complex turns was much lower but I never thought Alexei had naturally quick feet. I thought even Plushenko had better footwork, lighter and quicker on his feet. And as it turned out, Plushenko didn't really have an easy time adapting to the new demand of COP style footwork, and I have a feeling that Yagudin most likely would have an even harder time. OTOH, Abt had some of the best edgework back in the days. Long, deep and sweeping. He would probably do best under COP out of the three.

Yes, Yagudin had some great, audience friendly programs. But in retrospect I really wouldn't call them masterpieces the way I'd call Abbott, Savoie, Lambiel, or Takahashi's programs masterpieces.

Zemgirl
07-11-2012, 06:37 PM
Like I said compare their interpretations of the Gladiator in 2001 and Abt's is a complete joke next to Yagudin's. One makes you feel like you are out on the battlefield literally, as Beverly Smith a Canadian reporter said you could see blood out there while he performed it, while Abt's would have been a good time for a bathroom break. Even Stojko's Gladiator program that year was more interesting, good grief. Abt better musicality, LOL! When did Abt ever have programs that were performed like Yagudin's Gladiator in 2001, Yagudin's Winter in 2002, Yagudin's Man In the Iron Mask in 2002, Yagudin's 1999 short program.
Why should that be the basis of comparison? Yags was lovely, but he didn't have much of a range when it came to musical interpretation, and a lot of his programs were quite similar thematically. Of course, what he did do he did very well; as I said, I'm a fan. But when it comes to musical interpretation and range, Abt wins. And his programs at 2002 Euros were fabulous. The end.

judgejudy27
07-11-2012, 06:38 PM
There are some hilarious people on this forum. Actually people arguing Abt > Yagudin in musicality or skating ability. Freaking hilarious. I am not even going to bother any further into this, as I am going to die laughing soon if I can continue reading anymore of this.