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Southpaw
07-14-2012, 01:27 AM
Who remembers when people used to smoke in grocery stores?

:raiseshand:

Japanfan
07-14-2012, 04:20 AM
I'm not sure what kind of point you're trying to make here. We should be fine with having a smoker next to us in an apartment, because if we didn't have the smoker, there's a minute chance we might instead have either an axe murderer or pedophile, and that's much worse than a smoker, so we should just be happy with the smoker? Or that if we happened to have an axe murderer or pedophile, we wouldn't complain about the axe murderer or pedophile because they don't smoke, like it's easy to just spot an axe murderer or pedophile and say, "oh, hey, that person is clearly and axe murderer!"

I'm just not sure how the presence or lack of presence of an axe murderer and/or pedophile next door justifies allowing people who smoke to live in your apartment complex or not.

My point is that the outrage about smoking can become disproportionate to the actual harm caused - in relation to the outrage about other harms. As someone posted earlier, it really can get over the top.

Part of the reason for that, however, is that it is trendy. And a convenient target because steps are being taken to restrict smoking.

The horror I've seen on a few people's face just from saying I smoke is an example. These are not people I even lit up in front of. I honestly did feel that I would have had pretty much the same reaction if I confessed to having committed a murder or abusing a child - hence the axe murderer analogy.

skateboy
07-14-2012, 11:19 AM
I think the point some people are trying to make is that they shouldn't have to be put in the position of asking someone to move or put it out.

Also, you might be nice to someone making a request like that, but in many cases the asker is more likely to get a glare or a puff of smoke in their face than anything else. :shuffle:


Fair enough. I think a big issue is that, while smoking is banned in many places, it is not illegal. Yet, when smokers light up in a place where it is not banned, they are often made to feel like scum.

There are people who are strict vegans and get nauseous simply from the smell of meat. So, if someone is in a movie theater chomping away on a hot dog, is it appropriate for the vegan in front of them to say, "the smell of that hot dog is making me sick, could you please move seats?"

I think most of us would agree that no, it is not. Most of us, I believe, would say that the junk food eater is doing nothing legally wrong and, if the vegan doesn't like it (nauseous or not), he/she should get up and move seats.

But smokers are usually expected to "go away," even if they are within their rights to light up in a given area.

berthesghost
07-14-2012, 01:48 PM
My point is that the outrage about smoking can become disproportionate to the actual harm caused - in relation to the outrage about other harms. As someone posted earlier, it really can get over the top.

Part of the reason for that, however, is that it is trendy. And a convenient target because steps are being taken to restrict smoking.

The horror I've seen on a few people's face just from saying I smoke is an example. These are not people I even lit up in front of. I honestly did feel that I would have had pretty much the same reaction if I confessed to having committed a murder or abusing a child - hence the axe murderer analogy.Hmmm ... I don't know these people so I cant say, but I suspect the horror you see on their faces is not because you will harm them (ax murderer) but that you just basically admitted "hi, I drink a tall glass of bleach 3 times a day. Yes, I'm a smart person and I know perfectly well I am killing myself in a horibly painful way, but heck, what the hell, I like the taste of bleach".

Holley Calmes
07-14-2012, 01:53 PM
I think those people who are ugly to others engaged in acts not approved by the judgemental should look in a mirror. One might be a vegan and have a bad temper. Or a marathon runner and lie like a rug. That's worse than being a smoker in my book by a long shot. None of us are perfect. Sure, if someone's smoke is bothering you, a sweet request with a smile for them to move or put it out is to be expected, but I think the spirit with which it is done is important, with civility and respect.

Nobody is "better" than anybody and therefore able to treat others with distain. Japanfan, I understand what you are saying about people looking at you funny when you tell them you smoke. (People give me that look when I tell them I go to church.) Just envision them sneaking chocolate at midnight, whacking their husband, or yelling at their kids for no reason. When they are totally perfect, they can look at you funny. Until then....

skateboy
07-14-2012, 09:41 PM
I think those people who are ugly to others engaged in acts not approved by the judgemental should look in a mirror. One might be a vegan and have a bad temper. Or a marathon runner and lie like a rug. That's worse than being a smoker in my book by a long shot. None of us are perfect.

Thank you, Holley Calmes. I'm amazed at how sanctimonious some people can be.

There was a campaign to put pictures of horribly diseased lungs on cigarette packs. Guess it didn't go through, but I know a lot of people were for it.

I'd be all for it, too. That is, as long as we can see graphic photos on Diet Coke cans and Fast Food containers of hearts ravaged by heart disease. How about a diseased liver on every can of beer/bottle of alcohol? And pictures of morbidly obese people on cake mix boxes.

Alex Forrest
07-14-2012, 10:32 PM
Exactly, and put pictures of a cirrhotic liver on every bottle of alcohol served. And certainly we must have pictures of cervical cancer and penile cancer on every bottle of KY Intense sold too. And then clogged arteries on all fast food packages.

When I was in New Zealand last year, they did put pics of severe gingivitis and black lungs on the packages. I'm surprised this hasn't happened in USA yet, considering the seemingly open-minded people on here appear to be so judgmental about someone with a cig in his/her hand.

It's actually a good read on someone. If someone starts spouting off on smokers I eliminate them from my circle. Don't need the high and mighty looking down upon me. Same thing with neocons who judge my sexual activity. Buh-bye. Why put up with it? Uncut guys who go on and on about circumcision being abuse, well, when you get penile cancer (and penile cancer without exception is almost always in uncut guys) then can I say you are gross, deserved it, and I should not have to worry or in any way feel my tax dollars are going to save your life, since you knew that you were putting yourself and all tax-payers at risk for your sloppy self-care? That's not my style, but apparently is with some of these posters on here.

skateycat
07-15-2012, 12:00 AM
...Also, from those with experience who have quit or tried to quit, how hard was it and how'd you do it? Is it really as hard as people make it out to be or is it really just a matter of being mildly strong-willed? I guess its different for every person, but I'm having a hard time deciding if smokers who can't seem to quit are just really good at making excuses for themselves or up against impossible odds or what.

I quit 20 years ago this coming November. (I know - I started smoking when I was a zygote ;) ) Three weeks before I actually quit, I remember clearly declaring to someone that I would quit smoking when they pried the cigarettes out of my cold, dead hands!

Well, I got my first case of bronchitis, pulled a muscle in my chest from coughing so hard, got a big lecture from my doctor, and still, that night I tried to smoke. When I could not inhale the smoke I was so sick, I thought to myself, "I feel so bad right now that I bet withdrawal from smoking would not feel that much worse." I packed up all my cigarettes, lighters, matches and stuff and handed it all to a friend who lived next door.

"Here! I quit. If I am going to start again, I have to come and beg you first!"

Well, I never did beg her. The first few days I couldn't tell what was bronchitis and what was withdrawal, so it wasn't awful. As I got better, I had more cravings for cigarettes and I had to really work hard to stay quit. Then the cravings woke up my compulsive overeating problem, and I gained almost sixty pounds in three months, going from 120 to 180. Even at my top weight, I decided that it was still worth it for quitting smoking. It was a long fight getting the food monster back in the cage, though.

I am very grateful that I stayed quit.

Japanfan
07-15-2012, 01:49 AM
There was a campaign to put pictures of horribly diseased lungs on cigarette packs. Guess it didn't go through, but I know a lot of people were for it.


We've got those on Canadian cigarette packets. And stores can't sell them in the open anymore, all the cigarettes needed to be in a cabinet covered by a door or curtain.

But the thing is, it's reached a point where smokers can ignore the pictures and warning on packages, we've become normalized to that so they really don't do anything. Doesn't seem to work either, for the few who are picking up smoking at a young age.



I'd be all for it, too. That is, as long as we can see graphic photos on Diet Coke cans and Fast Food containers of hearts ravaged by heart disease. How about a diseased liver on every can of beer/bottle of alcohol? And pictures of morbidly obese people on cake mix boxes.

And pictures of environmental devastation on gasoline-run automobile ads/materials. And give what was said up-thread about fructose and liver disease, items with fructose should have a warning label as well.

Ditto trans fats, although food producers have finally acknowledged the harm it may case. But for years people consumed large amounts of products with trans fat not knowing what they were and what they did.

agalisgv
07-15-2012, 02:26 AM
Uncut guys who go on and on about circumcision being abuse, well, when you get penile cancer (and penile cancer without exception is almost always in uncut guys) Actually, that's a bit of a myth that's been debunked for quite some time.
http://www.cirp.org/library/disease/cancer/fleiss/

Penile cancer appears to be caused by HPV. And, um, smoking (amongst other things) is a known risk factor for contacting the disease :shuffle:

But back on topic, I don't understand why some smokers here feel ad campaigns designed to discourage smoking are objectionable. It doesn't really impact your ability to smoke, no? Why oppose efforts that would prevent others from starting the habit?

And do smokers oppose cig taxes? That's a very effective means of reducing smoking rates.

skateboy
07-15-2012, 03:59 AM
I don't understand why some smokers here feel ad campaigns designed to discourage smoking are objectionable. It doesn't really impact your ability to smoke, no? Why oppose efforts that would prevent others from starting the habit?

And do smokers oppose cig taxes? That's a very effective means of reducing smoking rates.

I don't oppose cigarette taxes. Nor do I oppose efforts to prevent others from smoking.

But what's good for the goose is good for the gander. Many people react with hostility toward smokers--all in the name of good "health"--yet think it's "okay" to put all kinds of crap into their bodies (as well as those of their family), full well knowing that these very things cause a variety of health problems (heart disease, obesity, cancer, etc.).

Double standard much?

agalisgv
07-15-2012, 04:30 AM
Idk--I don't hear anyone here saying obesity is "okay" and not a pressing problem. What it sounds like some smokers are saying, though, is unless/until the rest of the world's problems are solved, don't complain about my smoking. And to me that line of thinking isn't about pointing out double standards, but rather silencing objections to smoking.

Now, while I don't believe in demonizing smokers, I do think it's fair game to point out the myriad issues related to smoking behavior. And IME, this is where I think some backlash against smokers arises--when smokers downplay or outright deny problematic aspects related to smoking behavior (eg. Throwing cigarette butts everywhere, the toxicity of smoke for bystanders when someone lights up, the degree to which a smoker's clothes and car(s) are saturated in smoke even when the smoker cannot smell it abd the smoker has tried to be considerate, etc). So when non-smokers broach those concerns, but are basically told by smokers they are hypocrites and need to get over it already because it's no big deal, it makes smokers seem completely indifferent to the impact of their behaviors on others. I think the result is of that is negative feelings directed at smokers themselves rather than just smoking behaviors.

Jmho

On a separate note, third-hand smoke refers to the smell of smoke that coats a person and things after a person has smoked. It doesn't refer to a third party who hugs a smoker and then transmits that to others.

berthesghost
07-15-2012, 04:34 AM
I don't oppose cigarette taxes. Nor do I oppose efforts to prevent others from smoking.

But what's good for the goose is good for the gander. Many people react with hostility toward smokers--all in the name of good "health"--yet think it's "okay" to put all kinds of crap into their bodies (as well as those of their family), full well knowing that these very things cause a variety of health problems (heart disease, obesity, cancer, etc.).

Double standard much?
Kinda maybe sorta? But not really.

I get what you mean. Someone who often took a lot of recreational drugs, would be the same person constantly nagging me about drinking diet coke. :lol:

But despite all the efforts to get soda with warning labels, or vending machines out of schools, etc... it's really not the same. Both chocolate and alcohol for example are believe to be "healthy" in moderation, it's only their abuse that causes disease. I've never heard the "occasional cigarette smoke is good for you" line. Well, not since the 60s :lol:

michiruwater
07-15-2012, 04:44 AM
Not to mention that a person who eats a ton of junk food will not affect my life, whereas it is quite difficult to avoid cigarette smoke in some fashion when you are around a smoker.

iamawake2
07-15-2012, 06:07 AM
I quit smoking June of last year and one of the first things I did was to open a savings account and auto transferred the amount of money I spent on cigarettes a week. Every week the money went into this bank account. One year has gone by and I took my ciggie money and went on vacation recently. I could not believe how much money I saved! I called it the Nicotine Free account.
I thought about quitting for 2 years prior. Always telling myself not to buy another pack when I finished one then running to the store right before it closed because I was afraid of life without it. 6 months before I quit I began to decrease the amount of nicotine - I bought cigarettes w/ less nicotine than the the last pack and decreased that way. I got cinnamon sticks, cut fat straws the length of cigarettes, stocked up on raw sunflower seeds in the kernel, bought the patch, and some other things. One Sunday morning I ran out of cigarettes, took a deep breath and put the patch on. First few days was awful. Headaches, sugar cravings, low energy. Lousy mood. After a week it was better. I puffed on the cinnamon sticks and kept them in my pocket everywhere I went. If the urge came I pulled one out. Worked really well. I ate alot of sunflower seeds while watching tv, esp after dinner. I took walks. I read more. I taught myself how to knit. I called a friend who used to smoke 3 packs a day. She was wonderful. The patch gave me bad headaches and after 10 days I ditched them. It's been a year and yes the urge is still there sometimes but it's no longer a strong pull. This wasn't my first attempt but I didn't put this much thought into it. 2nd hand smoke smells far too strong. But the best part of all - I don't want one. If there's anyone out there trying to quit I support you and I don't stand on judgement on you.