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View Full Version : Figure Skating Champions SURVIVOR: Ladies QUARTER-FINAL (WITH POLL)



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kwanette
07-09-2012, 01:25 PM
No matter what one would say negative about Michelle or her programs you'll always find a way to diminish it. So, it's actually bad to have many intricate and difficult transitions between your jumps like Joannie, Yu-Na Kim, Patrick Chan or Daisuke Takahashi have? Yes, that MUST be something bad because Kwan just landed her jumps with crossovers in between in her Tosca and won US Nationals so this really MUST be the right way to skate. Without anything between your elements. Ok, Joannie's program is so terrible, she has a difficult exit almost out of every jump. And why did she have so much choreography there? Hmmm, there was much less choreography going on in Michelle's Aranjuez, that must have been right.

6.0 vs IJS, apples and oranges

UGG
07-09-2012, 01:44 PM
No matter what one would say negative about Michelle or her programs you'll always find a way to diminish it. So, it's actually bad to have many intricate and difficult transitions between your jumps like Joannie, Yu-Na Kim, Patrick Chan or Daisuke Takahashi have? Yes, that MUST be something bad because Kwan just landed her jumps with crossovers in between in her Tosca and won US Nationals so this really MUST be the right way to skate. Without anything between your elements. Ok, Joannie's program is so terrible, she has a difficult exit almost out of every jump. And why did she have so much choreography there? Hmmm, there was much less choreography going on in Michelle's Aranjuez, that must have been right.

Yes, exactly. I agree :P

Anyway why are you comparing a 6.0 choreographed program to COP?

Use Bolero and we have a discussion.Somehow, with that very boring program, Kwan ended up third in the LP behind Irina and Sasha. Her short program was great that year-Sparticus. I think that was also third right?

berthesghost
07-09-2012, 01:44 PM
No matter what one would say negative about Michelle or her programs you'll always find a way to diminish it. So, it's actually bad to have many intricate and difficult transitions between your jumps like Joannie, Yu-Na Kim, Patrick Chan or Daisuke Takahashi have? Yes, that MUST be something bad because Kwan just landed her jumps with crossovers in between in her Tosca and won US Nationals so this really MUST be the right way to skate. Without anything between your elements. Ok, Joannie's program is so terrible, she has a difficult exit almost out of every jump. And why did she have so much choreography there? Hmmm, there was much less choreography going on in Michelle's Aranjuez, that must have been right.Sorry. No clue wtf you're talking about.

Triple Butz
07-09-2012, 03:43 PM
I can see the chicken-feeding in the second clip, but have some trouble turning the arms into moose antlers in the first.

I was just poking fun, of course. (This poll isn't that serious, just a fun game for the off season!) But I did always find that section to be a total WTF moment. Irina pumps a fist with one hand, presses her thumb to her face with her fingers extended on the other as she rounds the corner. I never saw anything quite that silly again until Rachael Flatt tried to dance her way down Bourbon St.

antmanb
07-09-2012, 03:48 PM
I was just poking fun, of course. (This poll isn't that serious, just a fun game for the off season!) But I did always find that section to be a total WTF moment. Irina pumps a fist with one hand, presses her thumb to her face with her fingers extended on the other as she rounds the corner. I never saw anything quite that silly again until Rachael Flatt tried to dance her way down Bourbon St.

I raise you a Leonova chicken spiral :lol:

falling_dance
07-09-2012, 03:50 PM
I was just poking fun, of course. (This poll isn't that serious, just a fun game for the off season!)

I am committed to these off-season game threads. Nothing, not even my Best Ladies' Double Axels Poll, has more importance for me.

Triple Butz
07-09-2012, 04:05 PM
I am committed to these off-season game threads. Nothing, not even my Best Ladies' Double Axels Poll, has more importance for me.

:P

UGG
07-09-2012, 04:57 PM
The only World or Olympic program from Irina that ever brought out any type of emotion from me was her 2005 worlds long program. With everything she had been through with her illness, making her comeback, skating in her home country, and skating the way she did...it made me tear up. Her best moment of her career, IMO. I was very happy for her that she won, and it helped my disappointment for Michelle not making the podium for her 10th consecutive year. I was hoping she could pull it off.

It was a nice moment in figure skating history.

kwanatic
07-09-2012, 05:13 PM
I actually hear the most about Song of the Black Swan out of all her programs.

I agree with berthes; you need to talk to some different people.:P Michelle's programs were the strongest from 1996 up until 2001. SOBS was a great program but it didn't have the drama that some of her previous programs had. If you don't like Dream of Desdemona:slinkaway...I'd like to say there's something seriously wrong with you but I won't b/c people are entitled to their opinions. My opinion is you're crazy if you didn't like it, but to each his own.:)

I wasn't a huge fan of Michelle's Scheherazade though it was a nice program. Her post SLC programs were nowhere near as well-developed choreographically, but the performances were some of her best. The ease and emotion of Aranjuez and the power of Tosca make them stand out even though they weren't as strong in terms of choreography. Past SLC, I really felt like Michelle was biding her time waiting on Torino to roll around. She didn't want to drop out of competing but she didn't want to go all-out either, so there was less effort put forth during those years.

Her first version of Bolero was pretty good but by the time she made it to nationals and worlds that year, it'd been stripped down to basically nothing. I don't like that one at all...it's the only one of her LPs I say "pass" to. Spartacus OTOH was very nice; great utilization of the music.


No matter what one would say negative about Michelle or her programs you'll always find a way to diminish it. So, it's actually bad to have many intricate and difficult transitions between your jumps like Joannie, Yu-Na Kim, Patrick Chan or Daisuke Takahashi have? Yes, that MUST be something bad because Kwan just landed her jumps with crossovers in between in her Tosca and won US Nationals so this really MUST be the right way to skate. Without anything between your elements. Ok, Joannie's program is so terrible, she has a difficult exit almost out of every jump. And why did she have so much choreography there? Hmmm, there was much less choreography going on in Michelle's Aranjuez, that must have been right.

Joannie's Aranjuez was great but it is very tough to compare an IJS tailored program to a 6.0 program b/c the set of rules behind them are extremely different thus the requirements are different. Undoubtedly Joannie's was harder b/c of all of the transitions, footwork, etc. but then again it had to be. Even though Michelle's version wasn't as complicated b/c it was created under a different set of criteria, it was still a nicely done program that was skated perfectly several times. Sure, there could have been more transitions and intricacies in the choreography but under the system it did its job well.

I just find it a bit pointless to compare 6.0 to IJS b/c it really is apples and oranges in terms of everything: jumps, spins, transitions, footwork, etc. Unlike IJS, there was no set value under 6.0...there were minimum requirements (ex: rotations in a spin as opposed to rotations and positions) but past that the system was open to interpretation by the skaters whereas under IJS, skaters have to adhere to a strict set of guidelines in order to gain credit. I just find it tough to compare them...



I raise you a Leonova chicken spiral :lol:

Don't forget the kisses and hip wiggles...:lol:

l'etoile
07-09-2012, 05:17 PM
Of course the difficulty of choreography/program should count but when we are talking about "champions," I think the more proper reasoning would be to see the dominance and influence on skating, the sport itself, and on audience, you. That simple. Just my opinion.

antmanb
07-09-2012, 05:20 PM
Don't forget the kisses and hip wiggles...:lol:

I will never forget them!

Maybe this is more for the confessions thread, but I like the perk in Leonova's prgrammes, and I really liked the pirates of the caribbean programme, hammy it was :P I like her attempts to pretend to be a pirate more than 50% of the rest of the field who are attempting to pretend to be ballerinas.

One thing the group of ladies left have going for them - none of them have done the attempt to be a ballerina on the ice, and for that they all get a massive bonus.

kwanatic
07-09-2012, 05:32 PM
Of course the difficulty of choreography/program should count but when we are talking about "champions," I think the more proper reasoning would be to see the dominance and influence on skating, the sport itself, and on audience, you. That simple. Just my opinion.

That does make the most sense but I doubt if people will look at it that way. This poll is a clusterf*ck in terms of what criteria are being used to determine their votes b/c the definition of "weakest champion" is pretty broad.

I'm trying to use a combination of (A) achievements, consistency and impact as well as (B) the technical and artistic abilities. I'd say A should weigh a bit heavier than B (60/40) just b/c what matters most (IMO) is what the skater was able to accomplish given what they had. You could be capable of every jump and spin on the planet but if you can't deliver it counts for nothing...

Others are weighing only the technical side, some just the artistic, some are voting for skaters they just don't like...

l'etoile
07-09-2012, 05:49 PM
That does make the most sense but I doubt if people will look at it that way. This poll is a clusterf*ck in terms of what criteria are being used to determine their votes b/c the definition of "weakest champion" is pretty broad.
Exactly. But people have their opinions and do have full right to them. Plus, this is a skating board:rolleyes:


I'm trying to use a combination of (A) achievements, consistency and impact as well as (B) the technical and artistic abilities. I'd say A should weigh a bit heavier than B (60/40) just b/c what matters most (IMO) is what the skater was able to accomplish given what they had. You could be capable of every jump and spin on the planet but if you can't deliver it counts for nothing...

Others are weighing only the technical side, some just the artistic, some are voting for skaters they just don't like...

You've got quite reasonable criteria. I might start using your strategy since it's getting harder and harder to decide for me. In my case it was by looking at a skater's dominance and influence and it's been easy until this round. Now, the remaining three ladies need and deserve more articulate criteria.

berthesghost
07-10-2012, 02:23 AM
I wasn't a huge fan of Michelle's Scheherazade though it was a nice program. i took an instant dislike to it. Only a long time after could I appreciate it at all. Her nats lp is clean and performed strong, but choreo wise, I really prefer her gwg debut of it. It was really the best laid out, even if she didn't skate it clean here.
Her post SLC programs were nowhere near as well-developed choreographically, but the performances were some of her best. exactly!
Her first version of Bolero was pretty good but by the time she made it to nationals and worlds that year, it'd been stripped down to basically nothing.even the bolero debut was pretty butt. :P The whole thing just seemed like a bad idea. I actually think that by this time Kwan was too famous to talk plainly to. The one guy who could get away with it, she fired in 01. Her next two coaches. Basically both said they just kinda hold back and offer freindly advice when needed. She needed a real coach IMO. Only poor dick button had the balls to call it out as crap, and then got flamed as senile! :lol:

Joannie's Aranjuez was great but it is very tough to compare an IJS tailored program to a 6.0 program b/c the set of rules behind them

I just find it a bit pointless to compare 6.0 to IJS b/c it really is apples and oranges in terms of everything: jumps, spins, transitions, footwork, i agree its aples and oranges, but thats not what i was refering to before. Plenty of cop programs are empty. Plushy in Torino was packed solid w choreo? I don't think so. I also don't see irina's Spanish lp from that year as choreo heavy either. The cluttered look that some of wilsons programs have, like joannie's is not a cop requirement. I remember when Kwan fans were gushing over her because her programs reminded them of taj and Salome and other Kwan 6.0 programs.

Don't forget the kisses and hip wiggles...:lol::lol: and do we really haveta get started on florant's choreo!?!? :yikes::scream:
Anyone who watches Salome and this crap and still insists that all 6.0 programs are empty and all cop programs are masterpieces of intricate choreo, needs their head examined. :lol:

Marco
07-10-2012, 10:16 AM
Her first version of Bolero was pretty good but by the time she made it to nationals and worlds that year, it'd been stripped down to basically nothing. I don't like that one at all...it's the only one of her LPs I say "pass" to.

EYS. Kwan's programs were usually stripped down (TRV) / re-arranged (SOTBS, Schez) by Nationals / Worlds but at least everything would gel by then and the timing would be sorted out. Aranjuez and Tosca had little choreographic content but she would at least find a way to maximise the impact of those programs.

Bolero was the sole exception. By Nationals and even Worlds, the elements were still messy, the layout was un-clever, and the timing was still not right. The Worlds version looked more like a debut than the real debut did. Nothing was right with that program, whichever version was in question.

It is a pity that this was her final long program.