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pani
08-05-2012, 10:44 PM
thanks pani.

(no music choices, but a conversation about the growth and challenges they experienced after the olympics)

I had hope PJ will post something about new programs and music (at least about direction for the new season), but.... Its OK. Good thinkg they enjoy summer and look like Scott like to play with childrens.

Macassar88
08-05-2012, 10:49 PM
And as for Scott loving to play with children, that's really good so he can keep his and Tessa's secret baby happy ;)

Proustable
08-05-2012, 11:04 PM
As usual, a discombobulated collection of thoughts inspired by the last month+ of discussion.

Carmen: Why the fuss?
Because it is overused. While it's probably true that they could do something with it, there's tonnes of stuff out there. Why not do something amazing with something less heard. Yes, just because it's less well known doesn't mean it's as good, but it doesn't mean it's worse either. Additionally, I've found Marina's choreography for the big epic pieces to be less than inspiring (POTO for D/W, her work for Bazarova/Larionov). That's not to say that she won't come up with something special, or that V/M won't find a fire in it. Just that I'd rather see something else. And honestly, if we’re thinking warhorses, they could do an incredible “Masquerade Waltz.”

Tactically, I think it's a bit of a miss, truthfully. Is it clappable? Yeah, but who cares, Worlds are in Canada. They'll clap for V/M regardless. I'd actually argue that Funny Face in Canada and Carmen in France would've been a terrific one-two combination, tactically (Funny Face really was a risk last season). Now, with the knowledge that Cappellini/Lanotte are also doing Carmen, the story has the chapter of two former coaching partners tackling the same piece of music.

D/W and V/M - considered equals
Absolutely. Subway, they competed four times head to head and came out with two victories apiece (4CC and Worlds for V/M, GPF and WTT for D/W). Additionally, D/W also have the highest PCS score in any discipline ever for Die Fliedermaus. Their best FD scores are hundredths of a point apart. The media keeps mentioning the narrative. How can this lead anyone to another conclusion other than they are the top two teams that will be battling it out and that they’re largely equal? Is this V/M’s fault? No. Does it work to their favour to dispel this position? Absolutely. They don’t compete in a vacuum.

P/B can beat V/M next year
It’s a possibility, but I wouldn’t wager on it. And I don’t even think of it as being much of a possilibty, truth be told. I didn’t post the scoring gaps to suggest they could. I posted the scoring gaps to disprove an assertion made by a poster getting annoyed by scurrilous assertions. I’d say it’s as likely as Winkler/Lhose beating Navka/Kostamorov at the 2005 Worlds. That is to say, not bloody likely. After worlds, we heard repeatedly about how they were scored. The question wasn’t did they deserve silver. The question was should Weaver/Poje have beaten them into fourth. The scores P/B got were grossly inflated. In the end, no one really complained. How can you complain when the hometown favourites battle back after injury and lost training time score a personal best? But I’d argue that they’re not well positioned to improve on that outing. Weaver/Poje are younger and seem less prone to injury; Cappellini/Lanotte have made the move to focus on improving their technical prowess (they already have superb connection and musicality); both Bobrova/Soloviev and Ilynikh/Katsalpov look to assert themselves as the Russian number ones. It wouldn’t be surprising to see them out of the top five (though that would require one of the Russian teams to really make a leap).

If I want something else for Virtue/Moir, does that mean I don’t like what they are now?
No. I love Virtue/Moir’s romantic side. I love the fact that people who seem them skate for the first time assume they’re in a romantic partnership. I love the way he looks at her, the way their bodies seem perfect for each other, the way they seem so emotionally in tune with everything while being in this bubble. It’s extraordinary. I also think the shadings of their romantic FDs are tonally different enough that there’s still a great deal that is interesting.

But that doesn’t preclude me from wanting something else too. I would love to see them do something more like Pink Floyd, with its modern body movement and unique chemistry. I enjoyed their Golden Waltz SD for it’s gorgeous portraiture and atmosphere. In fact, I’d argue that very few of their free programs fit the “pure dance.” There’s story and character in most of their more acclaimed programs (Cherbourg, Mahler, even Latin trio).

Nor does it preclude the idea of working in another idiom but within their image. If they were to disregard the theatrical nature of Carmen, I’d be disappointed.

They need to leave Zoueva for greener pastures) Re: Levels
From Subway: “And the Canton teams still won. They're that much better. Do we really think the Canton training center didn't notice the level situation, won't evaluate if they need to do anything about it or not?”

1. Firstly, I’ll point out that the Shibutanis dropped from 2011 to 2012. Assuming they get the twizzles they missed at Worlds, they’re still six points back from 2011 due to dropped levels alone.

2. I believe they did notice and will do what they can to remedy that. I believe losing the key technical coach who understands how to get levels better than almost anyone will hinder that (only Platov and Camerlengo seem to get step sequence levels with the same level of understanding). I believe that given the success of the Camerlengo teams in this regard where the Canton teams didn’t suggests that the Canton coaching crew wasn’t quite on the ball to the same extent. You asked, Subway, why they should switch coaches and get a different perspective. This is a possible reason.

3. I’d also assert that Zoueva miscalculated with the short dance this past season year, something that Camerlengo didn't.

4. I’d also argue that Detroit isn’t merely Krylova and Camerlengo. It’s also Natalie Annrenko. And Elizabeth Swallow. And Massimo Scali (now). Right now, Canton seems to be Marina Zoueva and Johnny Johns.

5. The assertion that Marina is the most successful coach-choreographer out there is also false, imo. The TEAM of Zoueva and Shpilband were the ones that had the success. Now, can we give credit to Zoueva here? Absolutely. Once she came aboard, he had his first major team internationally (Belbin/Agosto), took two podium spots at Worlds and the Olympics (usually the terrain of the top Russian teams) and of course the 2011 podium sweep. She helped his teams gain endurance and was undeniably instrumental (moreso than Shpilband, from their own comments) in creating/contributing to V/M’s legendary on ice chemistry. But he’s important in his own way too. It was he who was the first to truly understand COP-elements (B/A actually outleveled Navka/Kostamorov at the 2005 worlds). This past season, Zoueva and the Canton/Arctic Edge managers said that Shpilband’s schedule meant that he wasn’t always there for the teams. And this is the season where the trio had the most struggles with levels.

They need to skate to what I want them to skate to be truly successful
Subway’s raged against this type of thinking. Here, I’m in 100% agreement. I truly don’t get it. While Virtue/Moir don’t compete in a vacuum, it almost seems like internet discussion boards operate within one. Virtue/Moir are truly remarkable in that they manage to be successful on their own terms AND on the terms of the rules – something a lot of teams struggle with (see Pechalat/Bourzat). This is not to say that V/M are beyond criticism or improvement, but that in the snap judgment days of the internet, where everything needs to be instantly perfect or it’s massively derided, they take the opposite tack. Take any program from any “true” season (so not 08/09 or 10/11) and see how it grows. See how they work the kinks out. She how they improve the flow, the musicality, and the strength of the program. This is what I love about them. I might think “Funny Face” was a tactical risk – and it really was. But THEY WON THE BIGGEST COMPETITION OF THE YEAR WITH IT. They were the ONLY team to score an all level four FD this season with it (I’m pretty sure, anyway). It gave us at least once all time-list moment (the combination lift). It was a program that highlighted their specific brilliance (lifts, footwork) while allowing them to work on what they wanted (telling a story, character). “Funny Face” was an unsuccessful program only if universal love is the sole criterion (and by that definition, even “Bolero” is unsuccessful). Zoueva is an FSU punching bag for some reason that I don’t understand (I suspect people evaluate choreography differently than I), but there’s no evidence that opinion is reflected in the wider world of figure skating.

I would love to see them skate to something from Zhulin. And Camerlengo. And Dean. And Zazoui. And Miyamoto. And Moskvina. And Marcotte. And Steuer. And Haugenauer (well, maybe not him). I want them to skate a season where they do nothing but interpret the greatest dances from the past. I want a season where they skate unfettered by the demands of the SD. I want them to skate to Masquerade Waltz and Led Zeppelin and Swan Lake and Sigur Ros and Radiohead and Oscar Peterson or Duke Ellington and maybe some Phillip Glass and why not toss The Pogues in there too? But mostly... I just wanna watch them skate. For as long as they want (which ideally would be forever).

But regardless of what these next two seasons hold, they’re already successful.

Proustable
08-05-2012, 11:10 PM
.

Cherub721
08-06-2012, 12:32 AM
If I want something else for Virtue/Moir, does that mean I don’t like what they are now?
No. I love Virtue/Moir’s romantic side. I love the fact that people who seem them skate for the first time assume they’re in a romantic partnership. I love the way he looks at her, the way their bodies seem perfect for each other, the way they seem so emotionally in tune with everything while being in this bubble. It’s extraordinary. I also think the shadings of their romantic FDs are tonally different enough that there’s still a great deal that is interesting.

:respec:


“Funny Face” was an unsuccessful program only if universal love is the sole criterion (and by that definition, even “Bolero” is unsuccessful).

VERY true.


I would love to see them skate to something from Zhulin. And Camerlengo. And Dean. And Zazoui. And Miyamoto. And Moskvina. And Marcotte. And Steuer. And Haugenauer (well, maybe not him). I want them to skate a season where they do nothing but interpret the greatest dances from the past. I want a season where they skate unfettered by the demands of the SD. I want them to skate to Masquerade Waltz and Led Zeppelin and Swan Lake and Sigur Ros and Radiohead and Oscar Peterson or Duke Ellington and maybe some Phillip Glass and why not toss The Pogues in there too? But mostly... I just wanna watch them skate. For as long as they want (which ideally would be forever).

But regardless of what these next two seasons hold, they’re already successful.

Sigh, yes, they need to skate forever. Or at least there needs to be a serious pro circuit where they could explore all these things, just like T&D, B&B, and K&P got to do. :(

iggie
08-06-2012, 12:42 AM
the only thing wrong with carmen was that v/m were skating to it. cap/lan were not put on blast for the same choice. in fact, people are actually looking forward to their rendition of carmen. there isn't a perfect song choice that will prevent the real music selection thread from being filled with haters once v/m tell us their real music. people are just at the point were dissatisfaction is their first reaction.

maggylyn
08-06-2012, 02:12 AM
the only thing wrong with carmen was that v/m were skating to it. cap/lan were not put on blast for the same choice. in fact, people are actually looking forward to their rendition of carmen. there isn't a perfect song choice that will prevent the real music selection thread from being filled with haters once v/m tell us their real music. people are just at the point were dissatisfaction is their first reaction.

^^ This.

sap5
08-06-2012, 02:13 AM
the only thing wrong with carmen was that v/m were skating to it. cap/lan were not put on blast for the same choice.

Probably because the expectations for C/L are vastly different than those for V/M.

maggylyn
08-06-2012, 02:18 AM
Probably because the expectations for C/L are vastly different than those for V/M.

Yes, but does that mean the expectation is that V/M aren't capable of doing something excellent with Carmen? Or is it the music selection itself that is expected to bomb regardless of quality of program?

Shayii
08-06-2012, 07:40 AM
Catching Up With…Tessa Virtue and Scott Moir – Summer 2012
http://pjkwong.com/?p=1253
Yay, something new to come home to! I'm so excited for the season to start. And can I say they both look really good here.

the only thing wrong with carmen was that v/m were skating to it. cap/lan were not put on blast for the same choice. in fact, people are actually looking forward to their rendition of carmen. there isn't a perfect song choice that will prevent the real music selection thread from being filled with haters once v/m tell us their real music. people are just at the point were dissatisfaction is their first reaction.
Yea I do think there is a bit of a double standard, I'm not sure why that is, but like I've said before I personally don't like the idea of Carmen for my own reasons. And while I really like C/L, I'm not as invested in them to care whether they skate to Carmen or not tbh. There's just some many great and original music out there, it kinda feels like they just "settled" with Carmen IMO, I repeat IMO. I look forward to when I finally see the program and I'm completely blown away...if that's what they are skating to.

Yes, but does that mean the expectation is that V/M aren't capable of doing something excellent with Carmen? Or is it the music selection itself that is expected to bomb regardless of quality of program?
I think it's more about the music choice in general, but also I think people can't imagine an innovative (something different) and creative program to Carmen. Not necessarily how they skate it, but maybe a little of how they interpret it.

Anyways, whatevs just excited for the season to begin and I hope they have a great time at the exhibition they will be doing later this month. Do you guys think they opted to this instead of ATS because they will make more money? I believe they're going for 15 days irrc.

And Proustable I agree with a lot of the points you made.

pani
08-06-2012, 12:06 PM
Yea I do think there is a bit of a double standard,

I agree. No expectations for C/L, D-W and for any other team, but a big desire to talking how V-M are bad, FD is worst ever (even if people didnt saw it) ect :lol:
And all this becasue V-M are the best ;


Why not do something amazing with something less heard.

because V-M all the time use something less heard. Why they couldnt use something overused now? D-W made this all the time and all love them ;)
They used FF and this was a big mistake. If they used something more known from Fred Auster movies, reaction from audience could be different.
Ky not ot use unused before music, but made innovated choreo.
Why people forget, that all lifts, wich other teams used now, were made buy V-M? Because all about V-M is really bad.

I am sure they will not talking now about music, becasue they see all this reaction.

Only i found this PJ interview boring? She could ask them about this exibitions in Toronto, about coaching situation, plans to compete in B competitions or no.

Candace
08-06-2012, 01:43 PM
In this PJ Kwong piece, Tessa looks happy and excited to talk about how they're doing and she looks healthy! But was it just me, or did anyone else think Scott looked less enthusiastic? I thought he seemed distracted or even a little down for this interview. Maybe he was afraid she would bring up up the music and they would have to defend their choice. I wish she had asked them about it so we would, 1. know if it's true and
2. what their thought process was in making this choice. Oh well, we'll know soon.

pani
08-06-2012, 01:52 PM
In this PJ Kwong piece, Tessa looks happy and excited to talk about how they're doing and she looks healthy! But was it just me, or did anyone else think Scott looked less enthusiastic? I thought he seemed distracted or even a little down for this interview. Maybe he was afraid she would bring up up the music and they would have to defend their choice. I wish she had asked them about it so we would, 1. know if it's true and
2. what their thought process was in making this choice. Oh well, we'll know soon.

Scott look like this since last season. I remeber girls talked Tessa looked more happy in Finlandia.
But maybe he catch a cold?

Golightly
08-06-2012, 01:56 PM
I agree. No expectations for C/L, D-W and for any other team, but a big desire to talking how V-M are bad, FD is worst ever (even if people didnt saw it)

because V-M all the time use something less heard. Why they couldnt use something overused now? D-W made this all the time and all love them ;)



I actually agree with you, Pani, in all of this. There is nothing wrong with wanting your team to do something different, but do you even know if they will do something different if you haven't seen their programs yet? People seem to expect less of the other teams, not you V-M fans, mind you, but their own fans.

And, yes, V-M always go for music not many people have used and they have done great, but it is also very true that other teams, including Davis and White, go for overused music and yet they've done pretty well and no one seems to be talking about it? Every piece they have used has been done before, yet that never is the topic of our conversation and, frankly, it should not be. In the end, what matters is who gets the most out of the music and we know who usually does. Let's calm down a bit and wait.

sap5
08-06-2012, 02:29 PM
In this PJ Kwong piece, Tessa looks happy and excited to talk about how they're doing and she looks healthy! But was it just me, or did anyone else think Scott looked less enthusiastic? I thought he seemed distracted or even a little down for this interview.

I wonder if he would have looked differently if she had asked him about the coaching clinic he and Tessa did in June.