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bbkenn
07-19-2012, 06:40 AM
You know what? V and M could have retired after 2010. I am just going to be grateful for ever chance I get to see them skate before they retire from eligible competition.

If they skate to Carmen - I will be riveted as always by the end of the season if not before. No matter who has skated to it before they will give it Tessa and Scott flair and finesse and it would indeed be different from so much they have done in the past.

And yes -there will be as many hate threads about it as the bandwidth here can take. I have never understood why haterz spend their energy hating instead of supporting the skaters they do like.

So very true Accordion. I consider it a privilege to see them skate and don't care what they skate to as they are brilliant skaters.

bbkenn
07-19-2012, 06:52 AM
I won't try to tell you WTT didn't count but it didn't count. That competition was and remains silly and is conducted under circumstances that don't remotely resemble the GPS and Worlds. This program could land them in second or third next year? Do you have reason to believe their skating is going to suck that much or are you honestly thinking the music can do that? That's ridiculous.

It's not going to be seen as copying D/W because it's VM and the two teams couldn't possibly be more different. We may as well say D/W were copying VM when they did the tango and attempted the close together skating and partnering transitions that are VM's strong suite, yet D/W won Worlds anyway, because it's about skating, not all this other nonsense, and VM were a bit out of gas at the end of their free.

As skaters and on-ice personalities, VM couldn't be more different than DW. Unless they decide to skate less musically and more frantically, it will be read as IMO it will play - as anything you can do we can do better and more stunning - in case we hadn't made that point before, here you go. The whole argument that VM are gorgeous but DW are more exciting will fly out the window. They didn't do DW type programs in the past because they didn't need to and DW did. They are more versatile and more sophisticated. However, the coming season can be the one window to be - oh, just for fun, we thought we'd show you this. Carmen has remained popular for good reasons. It's gorgeous music, accessible and dramatic with appealing characters. It can cover a lot of shortcomings - or seem to. Match it with a pair of figure skaters with the chemistry, musicality and skating skills of VM, and the bravura talents of Marina - especially Marina's sense of timing matching elements and highlights to music, and it is potentially knock your socks off, a Carmen for the ages. We're not going to see a hackneyed program. It's going to be Scott and Tessa doing it. Do you know what that program would look like with the passion, sex appeal, natural drama, freshness and emotional immediacy Virtue and Moir bring to the ice, combined with that music and using choreography built on Tessa and Scott's connection on the ice? What it could look like with an organic, natural dynamic, not melodrama?

I'm continually amazed at the lack of faith some of their biggest fans have in VM's spectacular skating and musicality and think they can be brought down by a Carmen while it's claimed DW, lesser skaters, IMO, are of course elevated when they skate to familiar music.

Nobody, including judges, thinks VM, the World champions, NEED to copy DW. They could skate Phantom and nobody would think that - VM are just that good. That is reality. If DW wins GPF again next season it won't be because VM are considered their pale imitators but because of a similar situation to last year - VM needing their levels, one of them making an error.

I'd also like to disagree with just almost every poster here - the passion and intensity with which they can skate something like this will make it fresh. I think audiences will go crazy for it, if it IS the fd. I'm going to be disappointed if it's not. It's one thing to be disappointed that Virtue and Moir may not be skating a program that only ever existed in some fans' imaginations and they were never going to skate anyway, it's another to translate that disappointment into condemning them before we see what they do. You'd think they have a had a lot of failed programs when I can't think of any failed programs. And if I read only this board I'd assume they lost Worlds this year. They win. But the hand-wringing happens every season. Is it about winning or losing or wanting them to be what they're not and don't want to be?

Not to mention, for the fans yearning for a vampire program or an on fire, sexual Scott, music telling the story of a man passionately tormented by a woman, driven to kill her out of jealousy, should more than meet those fantasies. I'm looking forward to Tessa - if it's a free dance. Her performance in the cd in 2008, in Farrucas, in absolutely anything Latin should settle any question. She's not going to be some diva gargoyle on ice. She'll do what she does, which is fiery, committed and sexy.

Just a reminder:

Mahler: oh no, that's Katia's music. Marina wants to make them G&G instead of Tessa and Scott. Why is she making funeral music a romantic piece?
Latin FD: well, that season barely happened.
Funny Face: give Worlds to DW, it's obviously a done deal, DF is Marina's masterpiece, why did she suggest FF to Tessa and Scott? It's no better than That's Entertainment. It's empty.

The only program everybody seems to like is Pink Floyd. I thought it was great but so were many other VM programs.

I agree with your entire post Subway!

HSGP21
07-19-2012, 11:23 AM
Hilarious- on AuntJoyce's "Formspring" he says he has serious doubts about the FD choices someone posted, and thinks it is someone trying to mess with everyone. Mission Accomplished!

bmcg
07-19-2012, 12:45 PM
I think the Carmen one might be true. I think the music they gave for D&W and Shibs was an obvious joke.

clarie
07-19-2012, 01:36 PM
I agree with Sonata - between VM and Marina a Carmen could be so freaking hot it would be like the audiences and fans had never seen Carmen before. That's my speculation about its performance impact. VM's skating I do not question is the best in the World, and if they aren't injured and skate their best, they'll win again, no matter who choreographed their competitors.

Agree with you wholeheartedly on that.

Also....if V/M and D/W didn't get their "levels"....whose fault would it have been. Both teams are capable of that and more.

Subway
07-19-2012, 02:42 PM
P&B got their levels last season; at the same time the scoring gap between P&B and VM widened as last season went on. PCs aren't a subjective, "packaging" component, as with everything judged in figure skating it's also a technical facet, just as presentation used to be a technical component (how well something was done, in the technical sense), and not what some commentators used to claim, personal taste of the judges as to the theatrical impact.

l'etoile
07-19-2012, 05:13 PM
Attempts to mess with everyone or not, I still think V/M's Carmen will be exquisite no matter what.

nuge
07-19-2012, 05:23 PM
Attempts to mess with everyone or not, I still think V/M's Carmen will be exquisite no matter what.

I don't care if they are skating Carmen or not you are right it probably will be exquisite :D but right now I'm more interested on seeing the new improved Bobrova and partner :lol: who you never know could jump ahead of W/P and P/B :P Plus the new seniors S/Z :)

Bournekraatzfan
07-19-2012, 05:37 PM
((gerbil))

yes.
and kudos to aka_gerbil for responding so calmly and thoughtfully. I think you are very knowledgeable about ice dance and I find your posts interesting and informative. And I really appreciate that you convey your opinions without being derisive towards other posters. Also, FWIW, I agree with you that P&B are vastly underrated, and I fully expect them to continue their development this season. In addition to that, I think you make a very good point about levels. For instance, the difference between a level 3 and a level 4 in the rhumba was 1.00, which is signifiant.

Subway, I think you make some great points, but I don't understand how you can chastise some members of this thread for posting in a manner that you perceive to be presumptuous and condescending towards V&M and then speak to posters in the same manner. I really do think you add a lot to the discussions here; I just wish you would be more careful about the tone in which you respond to others.

Shayii
07-19-2012, 07:00 PM
yes.
and kudos to aka_gerbil for responding so calmly and thoughtfully. I think you are very knowledgeable about ice dance and I find your posts interesting and informative. And I really appreciate that you convey your opinions without being derisive towards other posters. Also, FWIW, I agree with you that P&B are vastly underrated, and I fully expect them to continue their development this season. In addition to that, I think you make a very good point about levels. For instance, the difference between a level 3 and a level 4 in the rhumba was 1.00, which is signifiant.

Subway, I think you make some great points, but I don't understand how you can chastise some members of this thread for posting in a manner that you perceive to be presumptuous and condescending towards V&M and then speak to posters in the same manner. I really do think you add a lot to the discussions here; I just wish you would be more careful about the tone in which you respond to others.
Agree. I don't see how anybody thinks it's ok to speak to people in that tone, but to each his own I guess.

Anyways where have you been BKF, it's great to see you back posting again :).

Golightly
07-19-2012, 07:10 PM
I just wanted to say that BKF is my favorite poster. That is all.

l'etoile
07-19-2012, 09:42 PM
I don't care if they are skating Carmen or not you are right it probably will be exquisite :D but right now I'm more interested on seeing the new improved Bobrova and partner :lol: who you never know could jump ahead of W/P and P/B :P Plus the new seniors S/Z :)

I don't see B/S jumping ahead of W/P or P/B even with much improved form in just one season:rolleyes:, although I too am much looking forward to their improvement under influence of Zhulin:kickass:

Anyways, back to the topic, I've been picturing V/M's Carmen in my head lately and it really kicks out of me:swoon: (And yes, I've self-invited myself into this thread if that's okay with you guys:D)

DaiKozOda
07-19-2012, 10:56 PM
Whatever the music will be, I think V&M won't have a problem in pulling off a great interpretation to it. I trust their talent. Now they are older and have more artistic maturity.

Macassar88
07-19-2012, 11:04 PM
I don't see B/S jumping ahead of W/P or P/B even with much improved form in just one season:rolleyes:, although I too am much looking forward to their improvement under influence of Zhulin:kickass:

Anyways, back to the topic, I've been picturing V/M's Carmen in my head lately and it really kicks out of me:swoon: (And yes, I've self-invited myself into this thread if that's okay with you guys:D)

I just found a video that shows Bobrova's improved posture! So apparently Zhulin is doing his job. Unfortunately, it doesn't show them doing much skating together and doesn't play their music in the background. (The video is in the From Russia With Love thread)

Proustable
07-20-2012, 01:22 AM
P&B got their levels last season; at the same time the scoring gap between P&B and VM widened as last season went on. PCs aren't a subjective, "packaging" component, as with everything judged in figure skating it's also a technical facet, just as presentation used to be a technical component (how well something was done, in the technical sense), and not what some commentators used to claim, personal taste of the judges as to the theatrical impact.

I'm gonna delve deeper into the general points, but lets compare the scoring gap. They competed head-to-head four times: TEB, GPF, Worlds, and WTT.

TEB
V/M: 176.93
P/B: 164.56
Difference: 12.37

GPF
V/M: 183.34
P/B: 169.69
Difference: 13.65

Worlds
V/M: 182.65
P/B: 173.18
Difference: 9.47

WTT
V/M: 177.76
P/B: 167.83
Difference: 9.93

The scoring gap did not widen.