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Subway
07-18-2012, 09:04 PM
Here's where my thinking on this comes from... Granted, I think V/M are superior to D/W, but like I said in my original post, most consider the teams to be equal and it's expected that they'll trade placements over each other back and forth. Who are the "many" that consider them equal? Judges? They didn't trade back and forth the way you put it. Both won everything they entered except for the GPF in the case of VM and Worlds for DW, where they got silver. They don't even compete against each other until those competitions.


That makes for one of the potential teams to place above V/M right there. My other is P/B, who I think a lot of people vastly underrate. Well, I can't debate this. If you seriously think they have the skating skills - no matter what they skate to or who choreographed it - to potentially drop Tessa and Scott to third there's no place to even debate. There's no way. They're not underrated. They are the World bronze medalists against two better teams. They're appropriately rewarded and haven't been shafted. Anyone looking at the three teams can see the difference.


They continue to make their own strides and progress with their skating and are coached by their own dream team of Krylova/Camerlengo--who seemed to be darlings at the last worlds and have gained a lot of street cred. Don't know what you mean by street cred, and it seems to me the woman who choreographed the winner and the silver medalist of the past three Worlds, the programs of the reigning Olympic champions and silver medalists, the Worlds bronze medalists of 2011 and 2009, the GPF champions and silver medalists since 2009, the Canadian National Champions and the US National Champions and silver medalists with three different teams - DW, B&A and the Shibs - doesn't have to stay awake at night worried about being inadequate compared to Carmelengo. Universally, the verdict on her work is pretty stellar in the actual skating arena, fsu's opinion aside. It's not a choreography-off anyway. It's a skating competition.


Camerlengo is highly regarded these days when it comes to choreography, and I think P/B's Rolling Stone's FD is going to be fantastic. It's not so much that I think V/M's skating ability is suddenly going to nose dive (though I am concerned that we've heard nothing about Marina bringing in a new tech coach yet); I just think they could easily get themselves out done next year. Okay, you haven't seen the Rolling Stones program any more than you've seen Carmen, but you think the Rolling Stones is going to be so fantastic it could drop VM to third, not with them taking a nose dive, just because it's going to be that good even though you haven't seen any of it. And while you haven't seen any of Carmen either, it's not going to be fantastic because it's by that mediocrity, Marina Zoueva, so obviously, coupled with P&B suddenly becoming BETTER at figure skating than VM without VM declining at all, there's reason to worry they'll drop to third. Am I overlooking something?

Not just that, you say VM could "easily" - easily! get out done by P&B next season. The only thing to ask now is - in skating? You think they could get themselves easily out done in skating?



Not everyone shares the same opinion of Marina's choreography talent. ;) Judges do. Besides, that isn't relevant when we're speculating on Tessa and Scott's potential placements next season. What is relevant is the judges apparently do have a high opinion of her talent- see her resume which is more starry than Carmelengo's. What fsu thinks of her choreography isn't relevant to how they'll place next season, unless some think Carmen is evidence of dementia, or, more likely, that Marina is once again setting out to destroy Tessa and Scott but is somehow thwarted every year. Maybe this season she'll succeed!


I'm not one to say that she's the worst thing ever Well that's generous. What would she have to do to be considered actually good? Coach the reliable third and fourth place teams? Lose to the same two ice dancers year after year? How could she reach Carmelengo's heights?

Golightly
07-18-2012, 09:20 PM
Woah... let's take a breath here. P/B are surpassing the reigning World champs? What is left for poor D/W then? I think we need to be very careful with our predictions. That said, I think the way you respond to some of these opinions is a bit condescending, Subway. Aka was merely presenting something she's worried about. She's not doubting V/M's talent, just saying that with the split in Canton, judges might want to favor other teams. I disagree, but I can understand why she thinks it might happen.

aka_gerbil
07-18-2012, 09:59 PM
Who are the "many" that consider them equal? Judges? They didn't trade back and forth the way you put it. Both won everything they entered except for the GPF in the case of VM and Worlds for DW, where they got silver. They don't even compete against each other until those competitions.

Let's put it this way: "the many" is an impression I've developed from reading various fanboards and listening to various commentators. Judging/judges did not factor into my perception of this. It seems like I've heard/read an awful lot of declarations of V/M and D/W being equals. There are fan discussions and articles and interviews in which the participants talk about D/W and V/M trading things off. Hence, the perception that a lot of people think of the two teams as being equal.


Well, I can't debate this. If you seriously think they have the skating skills - no matter what they skate to or who choreographed it - to potentially drop Tessa and Scott to third there's no place to even debate. There's no way. They're not underrated. They are the World bronze medalists against two better teams. They're appropriately rewarded and haven't been shafted. Anyone looking at the three teams can see the difference.

And this is what I mean by people underrate P/B's ability. Just going on last year, when I compare P/B and V/M on skating skills, then yeah, V/M are clearly ahead. I'm not sold on D/W being better than P/B. IMO, D/W have difficulty and speed, but they lack in connection (which I realize is not a skating skill) and I think there are a lot of little things in their skating that need cleaning up.

I do think it's dismissive of P/B when it's assumed that there's just no way that they could ever catch or surpass V/M and D/W. P/B are determined, they are improving themselves, and I just think it's ridiculous to assume that they can't make it to the #1 or #2 position next year given their own hard work and improvements. Granted, we'll have to see what everyone looks like when the season starts up.


Don't know what you mean by street cred, and it seems to me the woman who choreographed the winner and the silver medalist of the past three years, the bronze medalist of 2011 and 2009, and the silver medalist of 2008 also is a darling. Not to mention the 1988 and 1994 gold medalists in pairs and the U.S. and Canadian champions and the reigning Olympic gold medalists. BTW she coached two sets of US National champions - B&A and DW. I didn't see Carmelengo's choreography defeating hers, I see hers defeating his. It's not a choreography-off anyway. It's a skating competition.

I didn't say that Marina doesn't also have a good reputation, etc. By street cred, etc., I meant that the work K/C did with world #3 and world #4 was very well-regarded and received and that K/C themselves have come to also be thought of as one of the top coaching/choreography teams in ice dance right now. To whatever degree politics factors into things, Krylova and Camerlengo's reputation/standing as one of the top teams, IMO, would just stand to also help their teams to some extent.

Again, just like P/B hasn't passed either of V/M or D/W YET, I think it's dismissive of Camerlengo's choreography to say that just because it hasn't happened YET that this upcoming season isn't going to be the year.


In skating? You think they could get themselves out done in skating? They remain as good as they are but P&B could become better? You seriously believe that? Based on what skating criteria?

On the skating skills mark, I can't see V/M not coming out ahead, but yeah, I think on the overall package, they could end up outdone.

Just to throw this little scenario out there:
--Last season, all three of the top Canton teams had some troubles getting their levels. I don't think any of those teams were able to get L4's for both Rhumba sequences for ONE example off the top of my head. I'll also point out that if you go back through the older threads from 11/12, I'm not the only one who noticed that this happened. Meanwhile, a couple of K/C's teams were able to get both L4's on both Rhumba sequences in more than one competetion. So, there was the concern there already about Canton and levels. Now, I think most will agree that Igor was the technical coach. He's gone now. We don't know if he's been replaced or by who. At this moment, I do think the "getting the levels" question is one that hangs over all of the Canton teams. We'll just have to see how everyone looks when the season starts up.

Hypothetical: Canton teams are having trouble getting level 4's but the K/C teams aren't.

--No, it's not a choreography-off, but it's still a pretty darned important part of the equation. It's a whole PCS category right now; that in and of itself makes it important. Again, will have to wait to see what everything looks like when the season has begun, but, yeah, let's say that P/B's FD is a masterpiece of work that they interpret the hell out of. P/B could end up with the edge for choreography and the other PCS categories (granted, in a head-to-head with V/M, marks could go back and forth and would likely be close).

Hypothetical: Camerlengo has choreographed a hell of a Rolling Stones FD and P/B manage to come out ahead in as many as 4 of 5 PCS categories, depending on the day. If politics are coming into play, then K/C now also being regarded as a top and getting better coaching/choreography team could earn P/B the political favor.


Which isn't relevant when we're speculating on Tessa and Scott's potential placements next season. What is relevant is the judges apparently do have a high opinion of her talent- see her resume which is more starry than Carmelengo's. What fsu thinks of her choreography isn't relevant to how they'll place next season, unless some think Carmen is evidence of dementia, or, more likely, that Marina is once again setting out to destroy Tessa and Scott but is somehow thwarted every year. Maybe this season she'll succeed!

And, judges also now have a high opinion of Camerlengo. Like I said above, the fact that Camerlengo hasn't passed her yet doesn't mean it's not going to happen in the future and it could very well be this upcoming season. Also, Marina may have the more starry resume at this point, but Camerlengo's could very easily end up just as starry, if not more, one of these days down the line.

On a final note, I think you and I could go back and forth on this all day. Once the season starts up, you may be correct, and I may be wrong or vice versa. The only thing for certain in the middle of July is that we're just going to have to wait and see how the next season actually plays out and how everyone looks when things get going again in the fall.

Emdee
07-19-2012, 12:37 AM
I dont think that P&B are anywhere close to V&M
I think that W&P will bypass P&B
I think that W&P may even bypass M&C

Above all my own opinion,

There is a point to be made about levels. Were they not getting their levels because of Igor? So were happy that he was gone?

I think that now more than ever Marina will bring in technical specialists to make sure that her teams get their levels.

Macassar88
07-19-2012, 01:06 AM
I don't see why Tessa and Scott wouldn't win worlds again unless they have a major mistake. I see them as by far the best dance team around right now and one of the top dance teams of all time (I consider them up there with Grishuk/Platov, Torvill/Dean and Klimova/Ponomarenko).
Unfortunately the judges don't care and just want to see fast, open skating with no unison or actual dance. For god's sake, Davis and White's "latin" SD was almost undefeated.
But I'm just going to be happy that Tessa and Scott are still skating and hope that I can eventually see them live.

Proustable
07-19-2012, 01:20 AM
There is a point to be made about levels. Were they not getting their levels because of Igor? So were happy that he was gone?

I think that now more than ever Marina will bring in technical specialists to make sure that her teams get their levels.

I will point out that at worlds, none of the Canton teams scored a level four on the Rhumba. The top three K/C teams did. Other lesser teams did.

That's the fact. What's the reason?

Sonata
07-19-2012, 01:41 AM
I was a little disappointed hearing that Carmen might be the FD music. But after thinking about it a bit more, I realized that with V/M's chemistry, this program will be HAWT.

sequins
07-19-2012, 02:19 AM
This is not fact yet correct? So why are people freaking out? I doubt they are skating to Carmen but if they are I'm sure it'll be amazing. As many have said I'm just grateful they are still skating and I will enjoy every moment.
Oh and P/B surpassing V/M? I love P/B but it ain't happening, unless they want another judging scandal to happen.

puretea
07-19-2012, 03:09 AM
I don't see why Tessa and Scott wouldn't win worlds again unless they have a major mistake. I see them as by far the best dance team around right now and one of the top dance teams of all time (I consider them up there with Grishuk/Platov, Torvill/Dean and Klimova/Ponomarenko).
Unfortunately the judges don't care and just want to see fast, open skating with no unison or actual dance. For god's sake, Davis and White's "latin" SD was almost undefeated.
But I'm just going to be happy that Tessa and Scott are still skating and hope that I can eventually see them live.

Thatís exactly what I wanted to say! ;)

Subway
07-19-2012, 03:12 AM
I will point out that at worlds, none of the Canton teams scored a level four on the Rhumba. The top three K/C teams did. Other lesser teams did.

That's the fact. What's the reason?

And the Canton teams still won. They're that much better. Do we really think the Canton training center didn't notice the level situation, won't evaluate if they need to do anything about it or not?

I can't really debate with you gerbil because our perceptions are so completely opposite, but the reason I got into the discussion was you said VM could easily drop to third, and PB could be ahead of them. That is a judging assessment and there's no support for it at all. That speculation has nothing to do with what fan boards think, or what journalists, who generally don't understand skating at all, babble on about. All due respect, how much do skating fan boards talk out their butt holes? A lot.

Dropping to third is a placement speculation, is relevant to judging, not taste, and there's absolutely nothing to back it up. I don't even understand why your belief that P&B are possibly equal to DW but not VM supports your speculation that it's VM who could drop to third after DW and PB. To say hearing of Carmen makes you think they could drop to bronze without seeing it, at the same time saying just hearing of the Rolling Stones makes you think P&B could beat VM without even seeing the Rolling Stones program OR the fantastical speculative improvement in P&B, just makes the whole topic so far ridiculous. You didn't say P&B would drop DW to third (which I also think is absurd), you argued they and DW combined could drop VM to third, but then you say you don't believe they're better than VM or likely to become so, so I'm lost. Taste, fans, journalists are completely different than what the judges are going to do and have done, and the judges have rendered their opinion of Marina's top two teams very consistently year after year, nationally and internationally. It's the skating, and her teams are the best skaters, and she has the choreography that shows it off. Marina is a popular whipping post on message boards but the skating world doesn't agree. These are separate things. FSU seems to believe she's a liabilty and her skaters succeed despite her. In the real skating world of ice dance she's an asset.

I agree with Sonata - between VM and Marina a Carmen could be so freaking hot it would be like the audiences and fans had never seen Carmen before. That's my speculation about its performance impact. VM's skating I do not question is the best in the World, and if they aren't injured and skate their best, they'll win again, no matter who choreographed their competitors.

aka_gerbil
07-19-2012, 03:42 AM
Dropping to third is a placement speculation, is relevant to judging, not taste, and there's absolutely nothing to back it up. I don't even understand why your belief that P&B are possibly equal to DW but not VM supports your speculation that it's VM who could drop to third after DW and PB. To say hearing of Carmen makes you think they could drop to bronze without seeing it, at the same time saying just hearing of the Rolling Stones makes you think P&B could beat VM without even seeing the Rolling Stones program OR the fantastical speculative improvement in P&B, just makes the whole topic so far ridiculous. You didn't say P&B would drop DW to third (which I also think is absurd), you argued they and DW combined could drop VM to third, but then you say you don't believe they're better than VM or likely to become so, so I'm lost. Taste, fans, journalists are completely different than what the judges are going to do and have done, and the judges have rendered their opinion of Marina's top two teams very consistently year after year, nationaly and internationally. It's the skating, and her teams are the best skaters, and she has the choreography that shows it off. Marina is a popular whipping post on message boards but the skating world doesn't agree. These are separate things.

I will give you that to actually know how things stack up, I will need to see the programs. That said, not having seen the programs does not prevent me from speculating on possible scenarios for this upcoming season. I'm entitled to think that, yes, P/B's Rolling Stones FD has the potential to be very good and to be worried about a V/M and a Carmen FD, and speculate on what the possible outcomes might be--even without seeing the programs. If once the season starts and P/B's FD is crap and I love V/M's hypothetical Carmen FD, I'll be the first to admit it.

Just to clarify, in my first post--I think it was my first anyway--I did point out that I thought that one spot could be lost to P/B on skating (by skating, I mean the whole package, not just skating skills) and one to D/W on politics. I'm one who doesn't believe that placements always match up with the actual skating that was done and that politics are still alive and well. I said that I thought V/M could lose a spot to D/W, not that they would get outdone by D/W. There was backlash--that I don't agree with, btw--for V/M's World's win and sometimes when there's backlash, things get a little wonky the next year (think 1991 Worlds placements as not being what they should have been due to trying to make up for 1990 Worlds).

I clearly disagree that it's fantastical or ridiculous to say that P/B don't have the ability to improve.

Yes, the past three seasons, Marina's teams have been on top. That said, look back at the history of this sport and discipline. She's not the first coach to put together a run like that, and then another coaches teams rise to the top while the others teams that had previously been ahead were still competing. Case in point: Linichuk. Save 2008, between 2006 and 2009 Worlds, she had 3 teams win. In 2009, she had 1 and 2. Just shy of a year later, those teams that went 1 and 2 in LA went 3 and 4 in Vancouver, passed over by the teams that were 3 and 4 in LA. Right now when it comes to the ice dance landscape, Linichuk isn't even relevant whereas a mere three years ago, she was the coach of the teams that had just gone 1 and 2 at Worlds. Yeah, Marina's had a good run the past 3 seasons, and it may very well continue, but history--recent history at that-- shows that these runs can and do come to an end.

Subway
07-19-2012, 04:10 AM
I will give you that to actually know how things stack up, I will need to see the programs. That said, not having seen the programs does not prevent me from speculating on possible scenarios for this upcoming season. I'm entitled to think that, yes, P/B's Rolling Stones FD has the potential to be very good and to be worried about a V/M and a Carmen FD, and speculate on what the possible outcomes might be--even without seeing the programs. If once the season starts and P/B's FD is crap and I love V/M's hypothetical Carmen FD, I'll be the first to admit it. It doesn't prevent you from speculating but it doesn't make the speculation logical. P&B can certainly improve, to speculate they can improve enough to beat VM due to their package is IMO fantastical and ridiculous, with nothing whatsoever to support it. There's an assumption there that Zoueva's package is considered inferior to Carmelengo's and nowhere in the real world does that fsu opinion correllate.


I will give you that to actually know how things stack up, I will need to see the programs. Actually, to actually know how things stack up, you'll need to see how the judges score the programs. You're not judging them, and based upon what you've said so far, there's a wide gulf between your opinions and the international judging community's; in your world Carmelengo packages his skaters better than Marina Zoueva.


That said, not having seen the programs does not prevent me from speculating on possible scenarios for this upcoming season. Speculation is fine but forgive me if I think it needs to be reality based.


I'm entitled to think that, yes, P/B's Rolling Stones FD has the potential to be very good and to be worried about a V/M and a Carmen FD, and speculate on what the possible outcomes might be--even without seeing the programs. You can worry all you like, doesn't prevent it from being baseless. A program packaged to your personal taste isn't going to defeat skaters as superior as VM to where they're defeated by P&B. As an aside, I must have missed where the mummy program was the darling of the street last Worlds even in P&B's home country - not that that's relevant since we're talking of placements due to music choice and packaging, which is extremely dubious criteria for a win. It's no surprise among VM fans where the WTT win by DW is considered more significant than VM's win by 3 + at Worlds, and apparently fans believe both competitions are taken equally seriously by everyone concerned, and where many VM fans, in their zeal to make them stop being VM and become something else, manage to snatch defeat from the Worlds win last year, all because it was won with Marina's FF program and that's considered a disappointment. I swear many would rather VM lose with Carmalengo than win with Marina, which makes me wonder why they're fans of VM at all, who are so proud of their dance-based skating.

Your whole line of reasoning seems predicated on the thought that Marina has no idea how to compete with Carmalengo, can't package her skaters, and has blundered with Carmen. I don't think that reasoning is in any way reality based going by Marina's track record and we're not even addressing the gulf between VM and PB as skaters, and your idea that combined with the "package" they could vault ahead of VM. There's not a package on the planet that can perform that miracle. When it comes to speculating on actual results, it needs a logical basis besides taste and preference, and here there's none.


If once the season starts and P/B's FD is crap and I love V/M's hypothetical Carmen FD, I'll be the first to admit it. Actually you won't have to admit anything at all. My response to you is about your idea that VM could come in third. They could win everything and you could still think Carmen was crap. Separate ideas.

P&B can certainly improve, to speculate they can improve enough to beat VM is IMO fantastical and ridiculous, with nothing whatsoever to support it. And again, to simply say that because the music might be Carmen, sight unseen the program is probably going to be inferior to the Rolling Stones, is also illogical. If we were having a conversation about preferences, fine, anything goes. When it comes to results, it needs to be based on something real, and this simply isn't. And furthermore, to hype Carmelengo as if Marina Zoueva is somehow widely considered inferior as a choreographer by the judging community, saved only by skating skills of her teams but that advantage has eroded (levels) is pulled completely from thin air. Only on fsuniverse would Marina Zoueva choreography be considered a disadvantage for a championship team, who won all their championships with her choreography against the very same skaters they'll compete again this season. Unbelieveable. There's no evidence whatsoever she lacks street cred, can't produce a package that as a whole will once again trounce all comers, or the judges prefer Carmelengo. Taste is one thing, lack of real world logic is another.

Shayii
07-19-2012, 05:28 AM
I wasn't even hoping for an "avant-garde" or "voidy" program from them. Just something contemporary and abstract and amazing. Maybe Carmen will be amazing too (if that's what they're skating to, I'll still hold out hope it's not), I guess I just wasn't expecting this choice at all. But it's all good, it's all good.

jl22aries
07-19-2012, 06:14 AM
((gerbil))

Shayii
07-19-2012, 06:16 AM
((gerbil))

lol, why? Nvm I think I know why and I agree :(.