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HSGP21
07-18-2012, 05:36 PM
I don't really trust this report...but I am a bit excited by it. I think skating to a cliche song will just prove how GOOD V/M are..it is one thing to make exciting music exciting, it's quite another to make overused music exciting. I think they can do it, and it will set them up nicely to wow in Sochi with something more unique

Golightly
07-18-2012, 05:43 PM
I don't really trust this report...but I am a bit excited by it. I think skating to a cliche song will just prove how GOOD V/M are..it is one thing to make exciting music exciting, it's quite another to make overused music exciting. I think they can do it, and it will set them up nicely to wow in Sochi with something more unique

Interesting. I agree, even if I'm hoping it's not Carmen.

Sahararainfall
07-18-2012, 06:19 PM
I don't really trust this report...but I am a bit excited by it. I think skating to a cliche song will just prove how GOOD V/M are..it is one thing to make exciting music exciting, it's quite another to make overused music exciting. I think they can do it, and it will set them up nicely to wow in Sochi with something more unique

Interesting perspective. So they're holding on to their cards until Sochi? Playing safe? But does it have to be Carmen? :confused: I mean even I with so little history on this sport understand the disdain most figure skating fans have for the use of this music, so much baggage already. Why make things harder than they have to be?

If this is true, pani's hatred towards Marina is going to reach a whole new level and I can't really blame her, although she did express favoring a program with overused music with great choreo over unused music with bad choreo. But still, I can't really imagine TS choosing this music (if it's true).

And if Marina and Igor wants to have a showdown on who's the better coach, couldn't they have picked a different music? (j/k) :)

aka_gerbil
07-18-2012, 06:45 PM
Interesting perspective. So they're holding on to their cards until Sochi? Playing safe? But does it have to be Carmen? :confused: I mean even I with so little history on this sport understand the disdain most figure skating fans have for the use of this music, so much baggage already. Why make things harder than they have to be?

This. I just don't think any good is going to come out of this program choice, and I think that this program (if it's indeed the FD) is going to be just as hard of a sell for them as FF.

While I'm glad that V/M are still competing, I don't think that means I can't be disappointed with the fact that they went with Carmen.

Subway
07-18-2012, 07:14 PM
I don't really trust this report...but I am a bit excited by it. I think skating to a cliche song will just prove how GOOD V/M are..it is one thing to make exciting music exciting, it's quite another to make overused music exciting. I think they can do it, and it will set them up nicely to wow in Sochi with something more unique That's how I see the situation. There was so much bitching among VM fans about Die Fleudermaus, which is every bit as familiar as Carmen. DW got the music people could hum, DW got the reliable war horse.

If this is a free dance, and I hope it's the free and not the short, it's brilliant. It's confronting Meryl and Charlie on their own turf. The big, theatrical drama, the character piece, full of passion and intensity, familiar music. There is every reason to believe they'll kill it, and remove that as Meryl and Charlie's high card. Even better, it's got gorgeous dance rhythms, so it's not just a theme piece. It sets them up for Sochi and stops whatever conversation there is about VM being too arty and Meryl and Charlie so much more accessible, blah blah blah.

There's no evidence at all that judges or skating audiences are tired of Carmen. If there was ever an overused piece of music it was Phantom of the Opera in 2010 and that didn't stop Meryl and Charlie from having huge success with their POTO program. Why? Great choreography, use of music, great skating. The latter is what it's all about. I think Tessa and Scott could knock our socks off with it. I'll be disappointed if it's the short dance. And then they can do exactly what they want for Sochi, just as doing Pink Floyd in 2009 freed them for the romantic choice at Vancouver. Marina openly said that's why she did Pink Floyd, and if she's doing Carmen for them, she's showing that the right skaters make all the difference in transforming a well known piece of music like this. So many skaters let the music do most of the work - I can't even imagine what this would be like with the talents of Virtue and Moir applied.

P.S. Now Malenguela - that's music I hate. Nothing to do with it being used so frequently. I just hate it.

aka_gerbil
07-18-2012, 07:34 PM
If this is a free dance, and I hope it's the free and not the short, it's brilliant. It's confronting Meryl and Charlie on their own turf. The big, theatrical drama, the character piece, full of passion and intensity, familiar music. There is every reason to believe they'll kill it, and remove that as Meryl and Charlie's high card. Even better, it's got gorgeous dance rhythms, so it's not just a theme piece. It sets them up for Sochi and stops whatever conversation there is about VM being too arty and Meryl and Charlie so much more accessible, blah blah blah.

Just to give the counterpoint to this, with the preface that I know that a lot of people consider V/M and D/W to be more-or-less equal (which I don't, but that's a discussion for a different time) and the co-top teams.

There is a tendency for the style of the top team to be emulated by lower ranked teams. V/M did win worlds, but they finished off the season by getting beat by 6+ points by D/W (and don't try to tell me that the WTT doesn't count--beecause it does). I guess, rather than this being seen as taking on D/W on their own turf, if Carmen is the FD, my concern is going to be it's going to be seen as them copying D/W's style in the vein of, especially in light of all the criticism of the choice of FF last year, "if you can't beat them, join them." My thought is that this program could easily land them in 2nd or even 3rd in the FD at World's next year.

Sahararainfall
07-18-2012, 07:38 PM
Well, tactical choice and positioning for Sochi or not, IF Carmen is indeed the FD, I hope this is something V/M have accepted on their own free will and not something being forced on them for tactical reason. Makes me then wonder what Marina's approach for D/W would be.

frisette70
07-18-2012, 07:52 PM
Is Carmen been that overused in ice-dance??? I only remember Navka/Kostomarov doing it in 2006... :confused:

DaiKozOda
07-18-2012, 07:57 PM
Ice dance:
Krylova & Ovsyannikov - 97/98 FD
Bestemianova & Bukin - 84/85 FD

+

Katarina Witt and Debbi Thomas had the "battle of the carmens" in 88.
Plushenko used it in 2001/2002.
Irina Slutskaya had a FP to Carmen in 2000.
Those are the ones that I remember the most.

Subway
07-18-2012, 08:00 PM
Just to give the counterpoint to this, with the preface that I know that a lot of people consider V/M and D/W to be more-or-less equal (which I don't, but that's a discussion for a different time) and the co-top teams.

There is a tendency for the style of the top team to be emulated by lower ranked teams. V/M did win worlds, but they finished off the season by getting beat by 6+ points by D/W (and don't try to tell me that the WTT doesn't count--beecause it does). I guess, rather than this being seen as taking on D/W on their own turf, if Carmen is the FD, my concern is going to be it's going to be seen as them copying D/W's style in the vein of, especially in light of all the criticism of the choice of FF last year, "if you can't beat them, join them." My thought is that this program could easily land them in 2nd or even 3rd in the FD at World's next year. I won't try to tell you WTT didn't count but it didn't count. That competition was and remains silly and is conducted under circumstances that don't remotely resemble the GPS and Worlds. This program could land them in second or third next year? Do you have reason to believe their skating is going to suck that much or are you honestly thinking the music can do that? That's ridiculous.

It's not going to be seen as copying D/W because it's VM and the two teams couldn't possibly be more different. We may as well say D/W were copying VM when they did the tango and attempted the close together skating and partnering transitions that are VM's strong suite, yet D/W won Worlds anyway, because it's about skating, not all this other nonsense, and VM were a bit out of gas at the end of their free.

As skaters and on-ice personalities, VM couldn't be more different than DW. Unless they decide to skate less musically and more frantically, it will be read as IMO it will play - as anything you can do we can do better and more stunning - in case we hadn't made that point before, here you go. The whole argument that VM are gorgeous but DW are more exciting will fly out the window. They didn't do DW type programs in the past because they didn't need to and DW did. They are more versatile and more sophisticated. However, the coming season can be the one window to be - oh, just for fun, we thought we'd show you this. Carmen has remained popular for good reasons. It's gorgeous music, accessible and dramatic with appealing characters. It can cover a lot of shortcomings - or seem to. Match it with a pair of figure skaters with the chemistry, musicality and skating skills of VM, and the bravura talents of Marina - especially Marina's sense of timing matching elements and highlights to music, and it is potentially knock your socks off, a Carmen for the ages. We're not going to see a hackneyed program. It's going to be Scott and Tessa doing it. Do you know what that program would look like with the passion, sex appeal, natural drama, freshness and emotional immediacy Virtue and Moir bring to the ice, combined with that music and using choreography built on Tessa and Scott's connection on the ice? What it could look like with an organic, natural dynamic, not melodrama?

I'm continually amazed at the lack of faith some of their biggest fans have in VM's spectacular skating and musicality and think they can be brought down by a Carmen while it's claimed DW, lesser skaters, IMO, are of course elevated when they skate to familiar music.

Nobody, including judges, thinks VM, the World champions, NEED to copy DW. They could skate Phantom and nobody would think that - VM are just that good. That is reality. If DW wins GPF again next season it won't be because VM are considered their pale imitators but because of a similar situation to last year - VM needing their levels, one of them making an error.

I'd also like to disagree with just almost every poster here - the passion and intensity with which they can skate something like this will make it fresh. I think audiences will go crazy for it, if it IS the fd. I'm going to be disappointed if it's not. It's one thing to be disappointed that Virtue and Moir may not be skating a program that only ever existed in some fans' imaginations and they were never going to skate anyway, it's another to translate that disappointment into condemning them before we see what they do. You'd think they have a had a lot of failed programs when I can't think of any failed programs. And if I read only this board I'd assume they lost Worlds this year. They win. But the hand-wringing happens every season. Is it about winning or losing or wanting them to be what they're not and don't want to be?

Not to mention, for the fans yearning for a vampire program or an on fire, sexual Scott, music telling the story of a man passionately tormented by a woman, driven to kill her out of jealousy, should more than meet those fantasies. I'm looking forward to Tessa - if it's a free dance. Her performance in the cd in 2008, in Farrucas, in absolutely anything Latin should settle any question. She's not going to be some diva gargoyle on ice. She'll do what she does, which is fiery, committed and sexy.

Just a reminder:

Mahler: oh no, that's Katia's music. Marina wants to make them G&G instead of Tessa and Scott. Why is she making funeral music a romantic piece?
Latin FD: well, that season barely happened.
Funny Face: give Worlds to DW, it's obviously a done deal, DF is Marina's masterpiece, why did she suggest FF to Tessa and Scott? It's no better than That's Entertainment. It's empty.

The only program everybody seems to like is Pink Floyd. I thought it was great but so were many other VM programs.

Wyliefan
07-18-2012, 08:03 PM
Sasha, Evan, and Yu-Na have also used it.

aka_gerbil
07-18-2012, 08:18 PM
This program could land them in second or third next year? Do you have reason to believe their skating is going to suck that much or are you honestly thinking the music can do that? That's ridiculous.

Here's where my thinking on this comes from... Granted, I think V/M are superior to D/W, but like I said in my original post, most consider the teams to be equal and it's expected that they'll trade placements over each other back and forth. That makes for one of the potential teams to place above V/M right there. My other is P/B, who I think a lot of people vastly underrate. They continue to make their own strides and progress with their skating and are coached by their own dream team of Krylova/Camerlengo--who seemed to be darlings at the last worlds and have gained a lot of street cred. Camerlengo is highly regarded these days when it comes to choreography, and I think P/B's Rolling Stone's FD is going to be fantastic. It's not so much that I think V/M's skating ability is suddenly going to nose dive (though I am concerned that we've heard nothing about Marina bringing in a new tech coach yet); I just think they could easily get themselves out done next year.


Match it with a pair of figure skaters with the chemistry, musicality and skating skills of VM, and the bravura talents of Marina - especially Marina's sense of timing matching elements and highlights to music, and it is potentially knock your socks off, a Carmen for the ages.

Not everyone shares the same opinion of Marina's choreography talent. ;)

I'm not one to say that she's the worst thing ever, and I actually quite like her pairs work, but I do think there are some limits to what she can do and there are other choroegraphers out there who easily do work that's just as good and better. I realize this is an issue of personal preference though.

Rafter
07-18-2012, 08:28 PM
I don't see how V&M potentially skating to Carmen is copying D&W at all... :confused:

Shayii
07-18-2012, 08:30 PM
And if Marina and Igor wants to have a showdown on who's the better coach, couldn't they have picked a different music? (j/k) :)
Lol I did think that maybe Igor told C/L to skate to it knowing T/S are going to use it as well. Which camp is going to come out on top? I'm just kidding too of course. I agree with gerbil's theory though, Marina is trying to make her teams skate to music she's used for G/G in the past.

aka_gerbil
07-18-2012, 08:36 PM
I don't see how V&M potentially skating to Carmen is copying D&W at all... :confused:

Because it's a well-kwown "big" piece of music... V/M aren't known for doing their senior FD's the well-known "big" war horse pieces--that's more D/W's area.

On another note, given statements made last year about being the most artistic team in the last five years and in the past, I also wonder if there could be some political backlash there. But maybe that's just me being my pessimistic self.