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blue_idealist
07-03-2012, 01:32 AM
Mao's competitive career for all intents and purposes is over. She is a zombie of her former self at this point, and I could see her suffering the indignity of even missing her own countries Olympic team for 2014, especialy with Ando now back.

Kim's doesnt have to be over, in fact if she gets her act together she could easily win the 2013 Worlds and 2014 Olympics which IMO would elevate her career even above Kwan's if she pulls it off, but if she comes back like she did in pitiful display at the 2011 Worlds where despite nearly winning over an abysmal field she looked like she had trained about 1 week only and was going through a half assed practice run through in competition, she might as well not bother.

I agree with you about the worry that Mao will miss her own Olympic team. If Ando comes back, one of Ando, Asada, Murakami or Suzuki will have to stay home. :(

Honestly can't see Kim winning the 2014 Olympics though, unless she makes a huge comeback in 2013, but I really just can't picture that happening either. The 2014 Olympics is so wide open, anyone else could win.. even Kostner! That would be crazy!

berthesghost
07-03-2012, 02:01 AM
Honestly can't see Kim winning the 2014 Olympics though, unless she makes a huge comeback in 2013, but I really just can't picture that happening either. The 2014 Olympics is so wide open, anyone else could win.. even Kostner! That would be crazy!ITA the 2014 is wide open and just about anyone can win. Thus, I believe that counting out Kim makes absolutely no sense at all. The last 3 WCs are Mao, Miki and Caro... all of whom have been at it longer than Kim and all of whom have had much worse meltdowns. Much worse. Kim's disasterous post OGM downward spiral has resulted in two silver medals at worlds. :lol: Now, if you want to say that the old guard will be outskated by new baby ballerinas, or that a Russian will be heavily favored, maybe.., we'll see. But predicting that grandma Miki will make her 3rd Oly team, or that grandma Caro will win on her 3rd try, but younger, stronger, more talented Mao and Kim will be shyt outa luck because they are so over... come'on :rofl:

Cheylana
07-03-2012, 02:28 AM
Voted for Lu Chen. I can see the argument for voting for Mao, but I feel Mao pushed the technical edge more with her triple axel and triple-triples. She has been a little unlucky to have been under the downgrade/flutz police's microscope these last few years, which caused a number of her jumps to disappear for the time being. Lu would not have that second Olympic bronze had that kind of scrutiny been in place in 1998. Also, Mao has better spins.

Macassar88
07-03-2012, 03:25 AM
True that! I used to call Irina The Terminator. Just when you thought you were finally rid of her, she'd come back even stronger. :lol:

:irina1: for OGM at Sochi!!!

judgejudy27
07-03-2012, 03:36 AM
:irina1: for OGM at Sochi!!!

She probably would have a better shot than Mao at this point. :lol:

RumbleFish
07-03-2012, 03:40 AM
I just don't understand why people are voting out Lu Chen over Mao Asada.

They both have similar caliber of acheivements, but Lu Chen fought uphill battle all the way coming from a weak federation. On the contrary, Mao Asada collected her medals receiving one gift after another.

There is a huge gap in quality of their respective accomplishments, IMO.
Mao Asada should be voted out.

Macassar88
07-03-2012, 03:48 AM
She probably would have a better shot than Mao at this point. :lol:

At least she can do a proper lutz.

judgejudy27
07-03-2012, 04:43 AM
I just don't understand why people are voting out Lu Chen over Mao Asada.

They both have similar caliber of acheivements, but Lu Chen fought uphill battle all the way coming from a weak federation. On the contrary, Mao Asada collected her medals receiving one gift after another.

There is a huge gap in quality of their respective accomplishments, IMO.
Mao Asada should be voted out.

They dont have similar achievements. Mao has 2 World titles. Lu has one. Mao has won the Grand Prix final twice. Lu never has. Mao has an Olympic silver. Lu does not. Mao was also forced to miss an Olympics and Worlds she probably would have won (or atleast 1 of the 2) based on the stupid age rules Kwan and Chen never had to deal with. Also if you are going to point out that there was no GP final before the 95-96 season, what I just pointed out more than negates it.

Mao was a much more dominant skater and bigger threat in her time, despite in the end playing second fiddle in her era to Yu Na Kim. I look at the measuring stick of skaters in the Kwan era as their records vs Kwan. Lu Chen never beat Kwan again at the 95 Worlds. Similar to how Butyrskaya and Cohen almost never beat Kwan. The skaters who often beat the great Kwan like Slutskaya and Lipinski were the real forces in that era besides Kwan herself. Similarily the skaters who often the beat the queen of the COP era Yu Na Kim a number of time, Mao Asada, and Ando who did it only twice but both times at Worlds, are the best skaters of this era besides Kim. If you can never beat the best skater of your era you dont belong in the top 3 or 4 skaters of that era either.

briancoogaert
07-03-2012, 07:23 AM
At least she can do a proper lutz.
I would give ! to her Lutz. :P

RumbleFish
07-03-2012, 08:07 AM
They dont have similar achievements. Mao has 2 World titles. Lu has one. Mao has won the Grand Prix final twice. Lu never has. Mao has an Olympic silver. Lu does not. Mao was also forced to miss an Olympics and Worlds she probably would have won (or atleast 1 of the 2) based on the stupid age rules Kwan and Chen never had to deal with. Also if you are going to point out that there was no GP final before the 95-96 season, what I just pointed out more than negates it.

Mao was a much more dominant skater and bigger threat in her time, despite in the end playing second fiddle in her era to Yu Na Kim. I look at the measuring stick of skaters in the Kwan era as their records vs Kwan. Lu Chen never beat Kwan again at the 95 Worlds. Similar to how Butyrskaya and Cohen almost never beat Kwan. The skaters who often beat the great Kwan like Slutskaya and Lipinski were the real forces in that era besides Kwan herself. Similarily the skaters who often the beat the queen of the COP era Yu Na Kim a number of time, Mao Asada, and Ando who did it only twice but both times at Worlds, are the best skaters of this era besides Kim. If you can never beat the best skater of your era you dont belong in the top 3 or 4 skaters of that era either.

As I have said to you in another thread, problems with your analyses are always assuming that judges get it right and all competition results are valid. I don't agree to this, as I have always thought judeges get it right less than 50 percent of the time.

Even with all the lowballing Chen Lu received through out her career, she still managed to win 2 olynmpic medals and 4 world medals. So take that.

judgejudy27
07-03-2012, 08:18 AM
Yes so lowballed she won a medal at every Worlds she was in where she skated decently, and received a gifted 2nd Olympic medal she didnt deserve (1998).

antmanb
07-03-2012, 09:00 AM
Yes so lowballed she won a medal at every Worlds she was in where she skated decently, and received a gifted 2nd Olympic medal she didnt deserve (1998).

If Lulu didn't deserve the bronze in Nagano then who do you think deserved it over her? Surely not Butyrskaya - she was really stiff legged throughout her LP and had quite a lot of saved jumps in the programmes. The version of Otonal that she skated in Nagano was nowhere near the standard she would eventually skate it at 99 worlds.

allezfred
07-03-2012, 10:22 AM
As I have said to you in another thread, problems with your analyses are always assuming that judges get it right and all competition results are valid. I don't agree to this, as I have always thought judeges get it right less than 50 percent of the time.

Even with all the lowballing Chen Lu received through out her career, she still managed to win 2 olynmpic medals and 4 world medals. So take that.

So if judges only get it right less than 50% of the time and if you're applying that "logic" fairly, then Lu Chen should only have 1 olympic medal and 2 world medals. :P

RumbleFish
07-03-2012, 11:18 AM
So if judges only get it right less than 50% of the time and if you're applying that "logic" fairly, then Lu Chen should only have 1 olympic medal and 2 world medals. :P

I think you would fit right in as an ISU judge.
How about becoming one instead of being a moderator? :P

allezfred
07-03-2012, 11:43 AM
I think you would fit right in as an ISU judge.
How about becoming one instead of being a moderator? :P

I will when you post something positive about Mao Asada or Miki Ando. :D