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DimaToe
07-04-2012, 12:06 PM
I LOVE Asada, but i wouldnt put her over Kwan...

Agreed, the logical, and likely top 2 should be Kwan and Kim, an fantastic 6.0 skater VS. a fantastic IJS skater.

gingercrush
07-04-2012, 12:44 PM
Also why is Kim bagging her career after Vancouver used as an excuse for her. That is really just proof of my point she doesnt have the competitive strength over a long time period that Kwan or even Slutskaya have.

Unlike those two she has Olympic Gold. That makes her a totally different athlete to those two who chased Olympic Gold after failing to win that gold. Secondly, both Kwan and Slutskaya showed up to worlds unprepared. Why Kwan placed 4th in 2005 and Slutskaya 9th in 2005. As yet Kim has never placed below 3rd in any event.

You also keep repeating Slutskaya and her competitive streak yet where was that in 1995 and 1997. And how could two supposedly competitive skaters ever lose to someone like Hughes and Butyrskaya.


Jump mistakes are still unforced errors (to use a tennis phrase) though. Kwan took the entire season off after Nagano and lost to a lights out Maria, but still had a none to shabby 6 triple LP to win the silver (despite the turn out in the combo in the SP too). She also took the entire season off after SLC but won 2003 worlds.

Like Kim, Kwan took the season off after their first Olympics and both grabbed silver at the following worlds. Kwan participated in Skate America and had US Nationals prior to winning Gold in 2003.

Amy03
07-04-2012, 01:31 PM
Agreed, the logical, and likely top 2 should be Kwan and Kim, an fantastic 6.0 skater VS. a fantastic IJS skater.

how is that in anyway logical why should yuna be in the top two instead of Mao,and why should yuna be considered a better IJS skater then Mao.. it's true that yuna benifitted much more from the IJS system but that was rather because the system had MANY flaws that had to be adjusted, and that gave her an advantage but that doesn't make her a better skater but rather a very lucky skater!

antmanb
07-04-2012, 01:34 PM
Secondly, both Kwan and Slutskaya showed up to worlds unprepared. Why Kwan placed 4th in 2005 and Slutskaya 9th in 2005. As yet Kim has never placed below 3rd in any event.

Kwan placed 4th in 2005 because by that point she was too injured to skate. in 2005 Irina won gold, I think you're thinking of 2004 when she placed 9th, and that was considered a pretty big comeback given the health issues she'd had all year that stopped her competing at all. If you want to compare like for like Kwan's 2004 worlds 4th place was her 12th world championships and Irina's 9th place was at her 8th world championships. Let's see if Yuna manages to get to her 8th and 12th world championships before comparing them :P


Like Kim, Kwan took the season off after their first Olympics and both grabbed silver at the following worlds. Kwan participated in Skate America and had US Nationals prior to winning Gold in 2003.

Kwan's programmes in 1999 were, IMO, better than Kim's in 2011.

You're right she did compete at Skate America in 2003 to fill in for hughes when she dropped out, was that the year she won and then the GP was a mes and she inadvertently qualified for the GPD and speedy made threats about her declinging to appear?

Anyway Kwan competed at every nationals proceeding the worlds, she had to in order to qualify. I don't think Kim has competed at her own nationals in years.


how is that in anyway logical why should yuna be in the top two instead of Mao,and why should yuna be considered a better IJS skater then Mao.. it's true that yuna benifitted much more from the IJS system but that was rather because the system had MANY flaws that had to be adjusted, and that gave her an advantage but that doesn't make her a better skater but rather a very lucky skater!

:rofl: come on! Seriously?! Yuna has had more success and consistency than Mao. Yuna benefitted from the IJS because she has great jump technique on the jumps she does, Mao does not have the same strong jump technique over enough jumps to help her get the GOE. They both competed under the same judging system, at the same time and Mao did not manage as well as Yuna. Also her last two trips to worlds have resulted in 6th place. She has been beaten by far more (and far less talented skaters) than Yuna. No question at all for me that Yuna is better than Mao.

briancoogaert
07-04-2012, 01:48 PM
how is that in anyway logical why should yuna be in the top two instead of Mao,and why should yuna be considered a better IJS skater then Mao.. it's true that yuna benifitted much more from the IJS system but that was rather because the system had MANY flaws that had to be adjusted, and that gave her an advantage but that doesn't make her a better skater but rather a very lucky skater!
:confused:
So, Yu Na Kim won over Mao just because the system has flaws ?

RumbleFish
07-04-2012, 02:01 PM
how is that in anyway logical why should yuna be in the top two instead of Mao,and why should yuna be considered a better IJS skater then Mao.. it's true that yuna benifitted much more from the IJS system but that was rather because the system had MANY flaws that had to be adjusted, and that gave her an advantage but that doesn't make her a better skater but rather a very lucky skater!

Tell me what you are smoking. Stuff must be fricken nasty!

Amy03
07-04-2012, 02:01 PM
[QUOTE=briancoogaert;3612276]:confused:
So, Yu Na Kim won over Mao just because the system has flaws ?[/QUOTE

I am not talking about the olympics i am talking generally, and yes I undoubtly think that the unadressed flaws of the system played a big role for yuna at the olympics too! the outrages scores there proves that!

RunnersHigh
07-04-2012, 02:04 PM
I am not talking about the olympics i am talking generally, and yes I undoubtly think that the unadressed flaws of the system played a big role for yuna at the olympics too! the outrages scores there proves that!

Not logical. try again though I want to read Chen's story the more.

ETA: Quote fixed!

RumbleFish
07-04-2012, 02:06 PM
deleted

RunnersHigh
07-04-2012, 02:06 PM
Not my fault. ;)

Amy03
07-04-2012, 02:07 PM
Tell me what you are smoking. Stuff must be fricken nasty!

tell me why you only see what you want to see, how about waking up and looking at reality instead of keep beeing delusional! there is a reason why so many rules where suddenly changed after the olympics, and that is probably not because it was working like it should!

RumbleFish
07-04-2012, 02:13 PM
there is a reason why so many rules where suddenly changed after the olympics, and that is probably not because it was working like it should!

So you are going to retrieve medals from all the people who won during the 6.0 era? Good luck.:scream:

shady82
07-04-2012, 03:36 PM
Possible.
If mature Miki(not 04 Miki but 07~11 Miki) + two 3Lz3Lo<(at SP&LP) + total 7 triples(including two 3Lz&two 3F) at LP.

Miki's 07W SP was 2nd behind Yuna's world record SP and ahead of Caro's brilliant SP(3F3T/3Lz/2A), and her 07W LP was 2nd behind Mao's world record LP, overall 1st.


[Miki's 07W SP layout]
3Lz-3Lo
3F(e)
2A

[Miki's 07W LP layout]
3Lz-3Lo
3S
3F(e)
3Lz
3T-2Lo-2Lo
3F(e)-2Lo
2A

I agree here. Miki in 2007 was significantly improved from in 2004. I don't understand why some people act as if her presentation never improved. While her spins and spirals were not top-notch, they improved dramatically. Her presentation did as well. Tbh her 2007 LP at Worlds was better presentation-wise than Irina's LPs in 2000 and 2001. I would place her 2nd in both portions of the competition in 2000, enough for gold.

UGG
07-04-2012, 04:02 PM
Unlike those two she has Olympic Gold. That makes her a totally different athlete to those two who chased Olympic Gold after failing to win that gold. Secondly, both Kwan and Slutskaya showed up to worlds unprepared. Why Kwan placed 4th in 2005 and Slutskaya 9th in 2005. As yet Kim has never placed below 3rd in any event.

You also keep repeating Slutskaya and her competitive streak yet where was that in 1995 and 1997. And how could two supposedly competitive skaters ever lose to someone like Hughes and Butyrskaya.



Like Kim, Kwan took the season off after their first Olympics and both grabbed silver at the following worlds. Kwan participated in Skate America and had US Nationals prior to winning Gold in 2003.

Actually at the following worlds after the 1998 Olympics, Kwan won her 2nd world title.

And yes she placed 4th in 2005 but like someone else said, that was her 12th year at worlds and the first time in 9 consecutive years she was not on the podium at any event. And if you want the answer to WHY...it is because she was skating on an eventual career ending hip injury.Michelle placed on the podium at every event she skated in between 1996 and 2005 with the exception of 2005 worlds. She placed no lower than SECOND at any event between 1996-2001.

And they lost to Sarah Hughes in 2002 because Sarah was held up in the short program. Go watch it. That crap should not have been 4th. If she was properly placed around 7th or 8th (I think one judge had her like 11th or something) she would not have won that olympics.

l'etoile
07-04-2012, 04:37 PM
how is that in anyway logical why should yuna be in the top two instead of Mao,and why should yuna be considered a better IJS skater then Mao.. it's true that yuna benifitted much more from the IJS system but that was rather because the system had MANY flaws that had to be adjusted, and that gave her an advantage but that doesn't make her a better skater but rather a very lucky skater!

What flaws would you care to explain? You're just saying the same thing over and over again in this thread and other rounds before, yet we all do not actually see the bulletpoints or hard evidence you're relating to.

One thing Yuna's benefited from IJS is that it better articulates the technical point, sees the flaws done in jumps-underrotation, cheated take-off, wrong edge, etc which unfortunately all could be counted as Mao's weaknesses. Do you really think it's the system that helped Yuna? How about we put her in 6.0 era? Do you think her technical prowess and almost-perfect technique wouldn't have benefited her or would have given penalties to Mao's flawed techniques? FYI, 6.0 did certainly have penalties for those flaws.

That technique is one thing Yuna's lucky about because unlike some skaters, or a certain skater, she doesn't have a strong federation with full support which are able to talk their skaters up to the judges directly, therefore has been fighting her way onto the top scene all by herself ala Lu Chen.

What flaws of system and luckiness of Yuna's are you so harshly criticizing?