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gingercrush
07-04-2012, 06:21 AM
But I'll never get irina hype. She's so :blah: and even her two WC wins that she did manage to pull off were pretty :blah: jmho.

Nah her 2005 win was awesome I thought.

berthesghost
07-04-2012, 06:24 AM
Nah her 2005 win was awesome I thought.I know. A lot people think that. But I found her sp to be very sloppy and choppy for a WC winning sp, and as amazing as the delivery of her lp was, it was still god awful choreo, music, theme etc IMHO. In a way, kinda like Kwan in 03. Amazing delivery and justified win, with a kinda :blah: lp.

VIETgrlTerifa
07-04-2012, 06:24 AM
And let's be honest here. When comparing technical ability, Mao and Yuna were developing from the standards set by skaters like Kwan, Slutskaya, Lipinski, and even Ito who made high triple counts and choreography and overall package a necessity in order to win titles. Sure Kwan was weaker in terms of 3/3 variety and Slute weak on free program composition, but they set very high standards and Kim and Mao had their groundwork to improve upon for their generation.

gingercrush
07-04-2012, 06:32 AM
Michelle and Irina would not have faltered frequently enough and were too competitive over too long a time frame, to allow skaters like Ando to slip through the cracks and become a multiple World Champion in their era, especialy winning a 2nd title with a mediocre display like 2011. It just would never happen.

Say hello to Shizuka Arakawa. Not that Arakawa was mediocre but you are using some of the strangest reasonings I have honestly ever heard.

judgejudy27
07-04-2012, 06:40 AM
Say hello to Shizuka Arakawa. Not that Arakawa was mediocre but you are using some of the strangest reasonings I have honestly ever heard.

Shizuka hardly peaked in the Kwan and Slutskaya era. Kwan was already finished (or finishing her career in the case of 2004), and Slutskaya was 27, suffering from a major illness and at the end of her career too. When the Kwan and Slutskaya era was truly going on Arakawa was a journeywomen. Also Arakawa >>>>>>> Ando.

RumbleFish
07-04-2012, 06:41 AM
Miss Asada's best days were in her junior period, and has been going downward ever since. She doesn't deserve to be in the same league with wonderful ladies like Lu Chen and Irina Slutskaya IMO.

magnolia
07-04-2012, 07:23 AM
Miss Asada's best days were in her junior period, and has been going downward ever since. She doesn't deserve to be in the same league with wonderful ladies like Lu Chen and Irina Slutskaya IMO.

I do think that Mao was a better skater when she was younger, but at a moment in her career when everything about her skating and technique was all over the place, she still managed to get an Olympic silver medal, getting three triple-axels ratified, as well as get her second World gold a month later.

Mao was really unlucky in that she was unable to find a coach who could give her the kind of guidance she needed to maintain and develop her natural talent as her body changed.

I really hope that all the coaching changes she made after the last Olympics is now serving her well, and that she will be able to show that the two years of overhauling everything about her skating/technique will finally bear fruit this coming season.

RumbleFish
07-04-2012, 07:35 AM
I do think that Mao was a better skater when she was younger, but at a moment in her career when everything about her skating and technique was all over the place, she still managed to get an Olympic silver medal, getting three triple-axels ratified, as well as get her second World gold a month later.

I acknowledge that Miss Asada is a feisty competitor. I do think she is better than likes of Ando and Kostner, and didn't campaign for her elimination before them. However, I just don't believe she should be ranked higher than Lulu and Irina as of now.


Mao was really unlucky in that she was unable to find a coach who could give her the kind of guidance she needed to maintain and develop her natural talent as her body changed.

I consider abilities to find a right coach and work well as a team one of the requirements to a successful career.


I really hope that all the coaching changes she made after the last Olympics is now serving her well, and that she will be able to show that the two years of overhauling everything about her skating/technique will finally bear fruit this coming season.

I sincerely hope so too.

gingercrush
07-04-2012, 07:41 AM
Shizuka hardly peaked in the Kwan and Slutskaya era. Kwan was already finished (or finishing her career in the case of 2004), and Slutskaya was 27, suffering from a major illness and at the end of her career too. When the Kwan and Slutskaya era was truly going on Arakawa was a journeywomen. Also Arakawa >>>>>>> Ando.


.....

You act as if Ando is a nobody. And regardless of whether you think Arakawa was way better than Ando. Ando has been very successful under the IJS system.

I just can't believe you're making out that Kwan and Slutskaya especially were that more consistent and that more competitive than Kim. It beggars belief. Slutskaya especially shares a very similar record to Kim except unlike Kim she could place outside the top three.

Of course Ando beat Kim in 2011 when Kim was gone for an entire season and only skated worlds and had numerous problems on her jumps at that worlds.

judgejudy27
07-04-2012, 08:30 AM
.....

You act as if Ando is a nobody. And regardless of whether you think Arakawa was way better than Ando. Ando has been very successful under the IJS system.

I just can't believe you're making out that Kwan and Slutskaya especially were that more consistent and that more competitive than Kim. It beggars belief. Slutskaya especially shares a very similar record to Kim except unlike Kim she could place outside the top three.

Of course Ando beat Kim in 2011 when Kim was gone for an entire season and only skated worlds and had numerous problems on her jumps at that worlds.

It beggars belief you would even compare Kim's consistency or longevity to Kwan's or even Slutskaya's. Kim competed at 5 Worlds as the favorite or co favorite and won only ONE of those 5. She could have won each with a major error but made numerous each times she didnt win. Kim like Asada completely fizzled out after her first Olympics, while Kwan and Slutskaya were still going strong past their 2nd, and in Slutskaya's case into her 3rd. Michelle Kwan went 9 years placing in the top 2 in every event she entered in one stretch.

As for Slutskaya she has won Worlds twice and 3 times she was 2nd to Kwan so would be a 5 time World Champion without Michelle Kwan in the way, which is basically the equivalent that she skated well enough to win Worlds 5 times, it is not her fault if the goddess of skating was in the way. And no you cant compare losing to Ando to losing to MICHELLE KWAN, dont be ridiculous. Slutskaya went through slumps, but that happens when you compete at the top for over a decade, rather than just a quadrennial which is all Kim has shown.

t.mann
07-04-2012, 08:47 AM
Would Miki even win 1 World title in the Michelle/Irina era?

Possible.
If mature Miki(not 04 Miki but 07~11 Miki) + two 3Lz3Lo<(at SP&LP) + total 7 triples(including two 3Lz&two 3F) at LP.

Miki's 07W SP was 2nd behind Yuna's world record SP and ahead of Caro's brilliant SP(3F3T/3Lz/2A), and her 07W LP was 2nd behind Mao's world record LP, overall 1st.


[Miki's 07W SP layout]
3Lz-3Lo
3F(e)
2A

[Miki's 07W LP layout]
3Lz-3Lo
3S
3F(e)
3Lz
3T-2Lo-2Lo
3F(e)-2Lo
2A

judgejudy27
07-04-2012, 08:52 AM
Also why is Kim bagging her career after Vancouver used as an excuse for her. That is really just proof of my point she doesnt have the competitive strength over a long time period that Kwan or even Slutskaya have. Neither of those would or ever did show up at Worlds having barely trained or prepared, which even the untrained eye could tell she wasnt for the 2010 or 2011 Worlds. Worlds a month after the Olympics is understandable perhaps given the whirlwind that came her way after the Games I am sure, but a year later? If she was going to half ass herself like she did at the 2010 Worlds and 2011 Worlds she might as well not showed up, as it did more damage to her stellar reputation than anything. It wasnt like she had a medical excuse of any kind like Slutskaya at the 2004 Worlds.

antmanb
07-04-2012, 09:54 AM
Im sorry but Michelle and Chen have considerably weaker technical ability than the rest on this poll. Yeah they both are good artistically but so are Yuna and Mao. Michelle and Chen could never do any good 3-3 combinations ( sometimes 3T+3T ) while the others on this poll consistently pulled of fantastic 3-3 combinations of much harder difficulty than 3t+3t. In my opinion Chen should be voted out now, the either michelle or Irina because they both lack either technical ability (michelle) or atristic ability(irina), while Mao and Yuna exceeded at both

I can see your point in relation to Yuna having hard 3/3s and some artistry but she doesn't have the longevity of either Irina or Michelle. With regards to Mao I can't remember the last time she actually had a competition 3/3, and I'd be pretty sure that she doesn't have as many ratified competition 3/3s as Michelle has (with the 3T+3T). For me it's no question that Lulu should go now (and should have gone much earlier) there's no way Mao should leave before her, but after this round I think it's definitely Mao's time.


.....
Of course Ando beat Kim in 2011 when Kim was gone for an entire season and only skated worlds and had numerous problems on her jumps at that worlds.

Jump mistakes are still unforced errors (to use a tennis phrase) though. Kwan took the entire season off after Nagano and lost to a lights out Maria, but still had a none to shabby 6 triple LP to win the silver (despite the turn out in the combo in the SP too). She also took the entire season off after SLC but won 2003 worlds.

Shaia
07-04-2012, 10:33 AM
ooh~ the discussions are starting to heat up!! :D

The way I see it, Mao Asada and Yuna Kim should be the last two standing. And Lu Chen is definitely not in the same league as the other four.

AndyWarhol
07-04-2012, 12:00 PM
ooh~ the discussions are starting to heat up!! :D

The way I see it, Mao Asada and Yuna Kim should be the last two standing. And Lu Chen is definitely not in the same league as the other four.

I LOVE Asada, but i wouldnt put her over Kwan...