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View Full Version : Figure Skating Champions SURVIVOR: Ladies ROUND 8



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smarts1
07-04-2012, 02:59 AM
I generally ignore annoying posters.

And you're not?

sk8ingcoach
07-04-2012, 03:28 AM
LMAO um no.

Im sorry but Michelle and Chen have considerably weaker technical ability than the rest on this poll. Yeah they both are good artistically but so are Yuna and Mao. Michelle and Chen could never do any good 3-3 combinations ( sometimes 3T+3T ) while the others on this poll consistently pulled of fantastic 3-3 combinations of much harder difficulty than 3t+3t. In my opinion Chen should be voted out now, the either michelle or Irina because they both lack either technical ability (michelle) or atristic ability(irina), while Mao and Yuna exceeded at both

judgejudy27
07-04-2012, 03:47 AM
Mao and Yu Na might have it all skating wise but they dont have the consistency, longevity, or strong competitive abilities of Michelle, Irina, Kristi Yamaguchi, Katarina Witt, or Tara Lipinski. How else to explain how they allowed a WAY less talented skater like Miki Ando to win the same # of World/Olympic titles as them in the same era- 2. Imagine if Miki ends up with more combined World and Olympic titles than Mao and Yu Na, that would be utterly embarassing considering the huge talent edge those two have over her. Would Miki even win 1 World title in the Michelle/Irina era?

shady82
07-04-2012, 05:27 AM
Mao and Yu Na might have it all skating wise but they dont have the consistency, longevity, or strong competitive abilities of Michelle, Irina, Kristi Yamaguchi, Katarina Witt, or Tara Lipinski. How else to explain how they allowed a WAY less talented skater like Miki Ando to win the same # of World/Olympic titles as them in the same era- 2. Imagine if Miki ends up with more combined World and Olympic titles than Mao and Yu Na, that would be utterly embarassing considering the huge talent edge those two have over her. Would Miki even win 1 World title in the Michelle/Irina era?

While I agree Miki is not as talented as Mao, Yu-na, or the rest of the list, Miki at the 2007 Worlds was very strong. She could have easily challenged for gold during the the early 2000s. A clean SP and FP, both complete with a triple lutz-triple loop, 7 total triples, and decent presentation, can clearly challenge Michelle and Irina. I thought her programs were choreographically fairly strong that year. In 2000, for example, she should place 2nd in the SP and FP at the very lowest (and 1st in the QR with her FP that year), and still win Worlds.

judgejudy27
07-04-2012, 05:37 AM
Miki did a triple lutz-triple loop at the 2004 Worlds and was still crushed by a clean Sasha and her triple-double, a not clean and not very good (in that performance) Arakawa, and would have been below Kwan and her triple-double without her time violation. I imagine her 2007 Worlds SP would have placed 4th in the short at the 2000 Worlds. Maria was exquisite and simply unbeatable that day, her best short program ever, and Irina and Michelle were both fairly clean and very strong and their overall elements and presentation would have easily kept them above Miki. Miki's difficult triple-triple would have successfully pushed her ahead of Gusmeroli, Hughes, and Nikidinov, all whom probably would have beaten her that day without it as well. As for the LP given Michelle's amazing skate and Irina's high marks maybe 3rd place ahead of Butyrskaya in the LP if lucky. Overall probably 4th place due to Maria's short program.

The thing to remember about Miki is she is not even a complete technical skater. She is not in the league of an overall skater of even Slutskaya who is also labeled a jumper predominantly. Slutskaya had excellent spins, footwork, even adequate spirals. Miki pales in comparision to Irina in all those elements, only in jumps can she compete. Slutskaya also had tremendous speed over the ice, and her presentation was quite strong in many areas, she had command and presence, a vivacious personality and high performance level, and at times even some nice musicality. So Ando in overall presentation pales as well. Outside of excellent jumps, ability to do triple-triples, and mutually ugly positions and lack of polish, they really arent comparable at all. One is a master technician in all senses, not just in jumping, who manages to have a quite strong overall presentation too despite her lack of polish. The other is just a jumper who worked hard to raise her spins and overall presentation to something that generously could be deemed arguably adequate at one point.

I do agree Miki at the 2007 Worlds was quite excellent though, even if I still highly doubt such a one dimensional skater winning Worlds in the Kwan era. She still needed Mao to blow 8 points on her combination alone in the short and give up another 7 points with an undrortation + 2 foot landing and 2 foot landing in the LP (still losing the LP by 6 points to Mao with her own squeeky clean skate) to barely eke Mao, and Yu Na to take two huge falls and have a mini meltdown in the LP to edge her. Even if you totally disagree with me there, which I suspect you do though, what to say about her 2011 Worlds winning performances. 5 triples, no triple flip, a miss on her key element, and this from a skater who even with some improvement over the years is still essentialy nothing more than a jumper. Forget would that performance have ever won a World title in the Kwan/Slutskaya era (duh of course not), but would it have even ever won a medal in any year. Yet Kim and Asada who were both competing at those Worlds let that performance win a 2nd World title for Ando. Not good for them.

blue_idealist
07-04-2012, 05:40 AM
I could see Ando winning the world title over Butyrskaya in '99 if she skated like she did in 2011, but probably no other time before 2007. '99 wasn't really the Michelle/Irina era either, I'd say that started after 2000.

judgejudy27
07-04-2012, 05:43 AM
I could see Ando winning the world title over Butyrskaya in '99 if she skated like she did in 2011.

ROTFL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Maria landed 7 triples to only 5 for Ando in 2001, Ando actually had a mistake on a major jump and no triple flip, Maria had far stronger spins, and way better presentation. Maria of 1999 would have crushed Ando of 2011 under either 6.0 or COP. Maybe you meant Ando of the 2007 Worlds, in which case I guess it is possible due to Ando's triple lutz-triple loops (much more likely under COP as she could maybe build a SP lead), although I still think Maria would win based on the presentation or PCS mark even then.

gingercrush
07-04-2012, 05:48 AM
o.o

I see shady82 beat me to Miki's incredibe skating at 2007 worlds. Miki has no medals from the Olympics so far. Two world championships and a Four Continent win. How is that better than Mao's two world championships, two GPF wins, two Four Continent wins and Olympic silver.

Also do I have to remind you of Kim's World Championship, Olympic Gold, three GPF wins, a Four Continent wins and World Record scores in SP, LP and overall. Also never being outside of top three.

When was Yamaguchi ever consistent? She was a great skater with a Triple Lutz-Triple Toe but clean? Two world championships and Olympic Gold is a huge achievement. I think she owes a lot of thanks to others crashing.

If Slutskaya was so competitive and consistent how come she only has two world championships? For how amazing she supposedly is her career highlights seem to be similar to Kim.

Lipinski skated for 2-3 years and got her success at an age when neither Kim or Asada could skate Worlds or Olympics.

Only Kwan and Witt have better records. Kwan was a consistent performer. Witt was consistent and never had to push herself technically post 1984. I mean hello she could do three/four triples and still land above Ito's seven.

judgejudy27
07-04-2012, 05:52 AM
If Slutskaya was so competitive and consistent how come she only has two world championships?

All because of Michelle Kwan. Take Kwan away and Slutskaya is a 5 or 6 World titles. How many times did Slutskaya come 2nd to or place just closely behind Kwan in major events like Worlds, the GP final, or Olympics, a whole bunch of times. Slutskaya was a consistent performer, but she happened to be in the era of the greatest female skater ever.

I didnt say Miki's overall record is as good or better than Kim or Asada. However she does have the same # of World and Olympic titles as them, and they somehow let that happen. If she wins another she would have more which would be incredible to realize if it happens.

gingercrush
07-04-2012, 05:57 AM
All because of Michelle Kwan. Take Kwan away and Slutskaya is a 5 or 6 World titles. How many times did Slutskaya come 2nd to or place just closely behind Kwan in major events like Worlds, the GP final, or Olympics, a whole bunch of times. Slutskaya was a consistent performer, but she happened to be in the era of the greatest female skater ever.




Take Mao and Ando away and Kim wins everything. One Olympic Gold, Five World Championships and Four GPF wins.

Edit: Ugh wait. Kostner was second in 2008.

Kim's record is proven. She was competitive because she never placed outside of top three and arguably if she was clean. Could anyone beat her? Except for Mao in the 2007 and 2008 season? No.

judgejudy27
07-04-2012, 06:00 AM
Take Mao and Ando away and Kim wins everything. One Olympic Gold, Five World Championships and Four GPF wins.

You shouldnt have to take Ando away. Ando isnt a special or great skater, and Kim should almost never be losing to her. Once fine, crazy stuff happens, everyone is human and makes mistakes (just like Kwan losing Worlds to Maria once) but twice in four ways, a 5 triple Ando to boot, no way.

Kim also lost to Kostner at 2008 Worlds so wouldnt have won that year either.

TripleWallie
07-04-2012, 06:06 AM
All because of Michelle Kwan. Take Kwan away and Slutskaya is a 5 or 6 World titles. How many times did Slutskaya come 2nd to or place just closely behind Kwan in major events like Worlds, the GP final, or Olympics, a whole bunch of times. Slutskaya was a consistent performer, but she happened to be in the era of the greatest female skater ever.

I didnt say Miki's overall record is as good or better than Kim or Asada. However she does have the same # of World and Olympic titles as them, and they somehow let that happen. If she wins another she would have more which would be incredible to realize if it happens.

To be fair, Miki won only because of major flaws/mistakes by Yuna or Mao. In 2007, Yuna fell on both her triple lutz and Mao botched her SP. In 2011, Yuna and Mao both struggled mentally--Mao was completely wiped-out by the earthquake and by her ailing mother, while Yuna struggled with motivation and little preparation, making numerous mistakes. Of course that doesn't change the results or medal count, but it does add some perspective.

gingercrush
07-04-2012, 06:13 AM
You shouldnt have to take Ando away. Ando isnt a special or great skater, and Kim should almost never be losing to her. Once fine, crazy stuff happens, everyone is human and makes mistakes (just like Kwan losing Worlds to Maria once) but twice in four ways, a 5 triple Ando to boot, no way.

Kim also lost to Kostner at 2008 Worlds so wouldnt have won that year either.

Kim decided to skip the whole season. Just like Plushenko in Vancouver. No matter how good you are you can't take a whole year off and expect to do well. We've seen that so many times now.

judgejudy27
07-04-2012, 06:16 AM
To be fair, Miki won only because of major flaws/mistakes by Yuna or Mao. In 2007, Yuna fell on both her triple lutz and Mao botched her SP. In 2011, Yuna and Mao both struggled mentally--Mao was completely wiped-out by the earthquake and by her ailing mother, while Yuna struggled with motivation and little preparation, making numerous mistakes. Of course that doesn't change the results or medal count, but it does add some perspective.


Kim decided to skip the whole season. Just like Plushenko in Vancouver. No matter how good you are you can't take a whole year off and expect to do well. We've seen that so many times now.

Which was my original point. In terms of combined excellent technical and artistic skating "ability", I agree that Mao and Yu Na are probably better than Michelle and Irina, although hard to compare when they grew up under totally different scoring systems. However their competitive strength, ability to excel over a long time period (they have both fizzled out post Vancouver, their 1st ever Olympics), and consistency is not up with Michelle or even Irina. Ability only matters so much if you dont produce it often enough.

Michelle and Irina would not have faltered frequently enough and were too competitive over too long a time frame, to allow skaters like Ando to slip through the cracks and become a multiple World Champion in their era, especialy winning a 2nd title with a mediocre display like 2011. It just would never happen.

berthesghost
07-04-2012, 06:19 AM
If Slutskaya was so competitive and consistent how come she only has two world championships? For how amazing she supposedly is her career highlights seem to be similar to Kim. for the same reason Kwan only has 5. She could have easily won 97 and 99, and even 04 wasn't out of her reach, making her a 8 time WC, but puberty and health problems and head games and family issues and federation pressure and all the same stuff that effects them all effected both Kwan and slutskaya. They faltered and others took advantage of the chinks in their armor. skaters are only human.

But I'll never get irina hype. She's so :blah: and even her two WC wins that she did manage to pull off were pretty :blah: jmho.