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View Full Version : Tom Cruise and Katie Holmes Divorcing



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berthesghost
07-10-2012, 01:30 PM
It might benefit you to look at a timeline if you are going to continue to argue your side.or.... He could just go back on his meds. :lol:

But I'm sure it's much more fun to imperiously chastise us for saying things we never said, and implying things that seem to exist only inside his own head. :blah:

Jenny
07-10-2012, 02:00 PM
I don't think Katie married for money; I think she married a fairytale, and I don't blame her for it. Many women before her have bought into a fairytale, whether it's a movie star with a private jet or a prince who will be king, or simply a handsome man and the promise of a house full of babies surrounded by a white picket fence; in many cases in the past, it was often about getting out from under your parents and having your own house and your own life. And I know men who have done the same - chosen a wife because he thinks she can complete the life he wants - whether she's a trophy on his arm or someone who will take care of him and his children, doesn't matter - most of us have hopes for the future, and often will make major decisions based on the possibility of getting there.

I also don't think there's anything wrong with marrying for money per se. If both parties in the relationship see a benefit - whether it's money, status, good parenting, family connections, getting away from something, stability, etc, if both parties are happy with the deal, then I'm not going to judge.

As for googling/researching Scientology in advance, sure for most of us it seems rather obvious. But let's remember that Scientology also has many devout members, many who are intelligent and educated, and many who are high profile and influential. Many seem to be happy there. So it's not a stretch to imagine that Tom and the Church presented a good case to her, and that she was ready to open her mind to it, and only decided later it's not what she wants for her child, or herself.

cruisin
07-10-2012, 02:09 PM
I'm only going to address one point in PeterG's post. The point re: Katie gathering information about tom, to use against him. I realize that that could make Katie sound horrible. However, under the right circumstances, I see it as self protection. She may have realized that she was in danger of loosing Suri, physically and spiritually. I don't see that particular possibility as putting her in a bad light. She did (if in fact she actually did) whatever it took to protect her child and herself. I don't think any of this is about money, she has had a good amount of success, on her own. She had success before one and has done more since Tom. I agree she may have married a fairytale. But, after the fairy dust blew away, she was left with a very bad situation.

snoopy
07-10-2012, 02:22 PM
I am seeing two types of takes from most of the comments:

1) Katie should be forgiven her judgment lapse (or not suffer the results of her choices) because she was in love or in lust or chasing the fairy tale. On this, I agree with Peter. It is a form of sexism because the expectation is a woman does not have her own agency. A woman can’t be expected to think rationally! She was in love!

2) Katie was thinking rationally and making choices - like marrying for money. But if this is the case, I don’t see why she should garner any more sympathy than Tom from what is essentially a shrewd personal and business transaction.

Jenny
07-10-2012, 02:41 PM
I'm only going to address one point in PeterG's post. The point re: Katie gathering information about tom, to use against him. I realize that that could make Katie sound horrible. However, under the right circumstances, I see it as self protection. She may have realized that she was in danger of loosing Suri, physically and spiritually. I don't see that particular possibility as putting her in a bad light. She did (if in fact she actually did) whatever it took to protect her child and herself.

I can't recall anyone saying she was purposefully gathering dirt on Tom - ie that she was spying, cataloguing, silently watching. My take is that any dirt she has on him is simply from spending time with him - she didn't gather it, it just piled up around her.



1) Katie should be forgiven her judgment lapse (or not suffer the results of her choices) because she was in love or in lust or chasing the fairy tale. On this, I agree with Peter. It is a form of sexism because the expectation is a woman does not have her own agency. A woman can’t be expected to think rationally! She was in love!

I don't see this as sexist. As I mentioned in a post above, men also chase fairytales and fall head over heels in love, and mistake lust for love, or even just go with the lust.

And the fact is that in much of the world, women do have a different experience growing up and developing expectations than men. When I was a kid, the boys played at sports and drove toy cars while the girls held pretend weddings for their Barbies, decorated dollhouses and tended to baby dolls. For many of us, it wasn't forced down our throats - it's what we genuinely enjoyed doing as kids. I think it's only natural that many girls of my era, and even Katie's, grew up to want to do all those things for real - get married, create a home, have children.


2) Katie was thinking rationally and making choices - like marrying for money. But if this is the case, I don’t see why she should garner any more sympathy than Tom from what is essentially a shrewd personal and business transaction.

Like I said, if both parties go into it with eyes wide open and benefit from the relationship, then all good. The difference here is that many factors indicate that the balance of power was skewed toward Tom - his age, his two previous marriages, his money, his star power, and her adoration of him as child. I think that's why, now that Katie seems to have the upper hand, this is being viewed as a contract (in the theoretical sense) that was not ideal in the first place.

snoopy
07-10-2012, 02:56 PM
And the fact is that in much of the world, women do have a different experience growing up and developing expectations than men. When I was a kid, the boys played at sports and drove toy cars while the girls held pretend weddings for their Barbies, decorated dollhouses and tended to baby dolls. For many of us, it wasn't forced down our throats - it's what we genuinely enjoyed doing as kids. I think it's only natural that many girls of my era, and even Katie's, grew up to want to do all those things for real - get married, create a home, have children.

To clarify, I am not calling wanting to get married sexist. I am saying that it is sexist to excuse a woman a bad decision or a bad choice in a mate because she has no control over her wants or emotions. It is great that Katie wanted to get married, but she didn't have to marry Tom. Tom was her choice. So again, I see no reason to give her more sympathy than Tom over the break-up.

bmcg
07-10-2012, 02:59 PM
I am seeing two types of takes from most of the comments:

1) Katie should be forgiven her judgment lapse (or not suffer the results of her choices) because she was in love or in lust or chasing the fairy tale. On this, I agree with Peter. It is a form of sexism because the expectation is a woman does not have her own agency. A woman can’t be expected to think rationally! She was in love!

2) Katie was thinking rationally and making choices - like marrying for money. But if this is the case, I don’t see why she should garner any more sympathy than Tom from what is essentially a shrewd personal and business transaction.

What nonsense and hyperbole. How is it sexist that there exists individuals who rush into things out of love and when the honeymoon ends they see things in a new light?? To meet and give birth within a year qualifies as rushing into things in my mind. Considering there are 52 weeks in a year and it takes 40 of them to have a baby that only gave them 12 weeks to get to know each other and for Katie to know the religion before Suri was conceived.

Forgive her judgement lapse?? No. Understand that they rushed into this relationship without really knowing each other, yes. Not suffer the results of her choices?? I think she is. Itīs a failed relationship and they share a child together, the result of her choices is going to be with them forever.

Maybe it's sexist to take this individual case and turn it into a statement about all women (and I think you and Peter G are the only ones to do that).

Jenny
07-10-2012, 03:05 PM
To clarify, I am not calling wanting to get married sexist. I am saying that it is sexist to excuse a woman a bad decision or a bad choice in a mate because she has no control over her wants or emotions. It is great that Katie wanted to get married, but she didn't have to marry Tom. Tom was her choice. So again, I see no reason to give her more sympathy than Tom over the break-up.

Point taken. However, several factors seem to be driving sympathy toward Katie. First as I said even at the outset it was seen as an uneven relationship - that he had all the power, and therefore she's the sympathetic figure. America likes an underdog, especially one who eventually wins :) (Whether she won or not, it makes a good story.)

Plus, although the world is grey, people tend to like things in black and white. Good guys vs bad guys, winners vs losers. We need to slot things into known boxes so that we can understand them and move on.

And, much as we love a hero, sometimes we kinda want to bring them down to earth. Tom has been the hero for so long - in life and in his movies - seemingly infallible despite rumours, Scientology and past divorces - and now finally there's a chance to bring him down and/or make him human.

snoopy
07-10-2012, 03:07 PM
Understand that they rushed into this relationship without really knowing each other, yes. Not suffer the results of her choices?? I think she is. Itīs a failed relationship and they share a child together, the result of her choices is going to be with them forever.

Key word here is "they", they rushed into this relationship. If the sympathy expressed was more balanced between both Tom and Katie over the end of their relationship, you would have a point. But it hasn't been.

snoopy
07-10-2012, 03:11 PM
Plus, although the world is grey, people tend to like things in black and white. Good guys vs bad guys, winners vs losers. We need to slot things into known boxes so that we can understand them and move on.

And, much as we love a hero, sometimes we kinda want to bring them down to earth. Tom has been the hero for so long - in life and in his movies - seemingly infallible despite rumours, Scientology and past divorces - and now finally there's a chance to bring him down and/or make him human.

Yes, I agree with these points. There are other reasons why it is easier, if no more valid, to pick on Tom.

bmcg
07-10-2012, 03:12 PM
Or it has and some people are just focusing on the more outlandish posts. But even if one says Katie rushed into it then it shouldn't be hard to logically conclude that Tom did as well. They share the same timeline.

berthesghost
07-10-2012, 03:53 PM
I don't see this as sexist. As I mentioned in a post above, men also chase fairytales and fall head over heels in love, and mistake lust for love, or even just go with the lust. Exactly! It's only 'sexist" because Snoopy has chosen to interpret it that way. Plenty of people of all ages, sexes, races, orientations, cultures, etc.. walk into relationships with eyes wide shut.

overedge
07-10-2012, 07:03 PM
FWIW many posts in this thread have been quite positive toward Katie for taking the initiative to decide what she needed to do, and then to carry it out successfully under quite challenging circumstances.

I don't think discussion of whether she made a mistake by getting involved with Cruise in the first place is the same as broadly labeling her a ho, a golddigger, or a naive fool.

Marney0612
07-10-2012, 07:09 PM
Apparently Katie has wasted no time registering at a Catholic parish... a very liberal Catholic parish but one none the less, while enrolling her kid in a Catholic school... This is the second time Tom has married a Catholic got the Catholic to leave for Scientology and then to have the wife go back to Catholicism. :lol: Why doesn't Tom just start out with a Scientologist?

Does anyone have confirmation of this?

kwanfan1818
07-10-2012, 07:34 PM
Apparently Katie has wasted no time registering at a Catholic parish... a very liberal Catholic parish but one none the less, while enrolling her kid in a Catholic school... This is the second time Tom has married a Catholic got the Catholic to leave for Scientology and then to have the wife go back to Catholicism. :lol: Why doesn't Tom just start out with a Scientologist?
I thought neither Holmes nor Kidman became Scientologists, although, what does it mean to become one? From everything I've seen, it's a gradual induction in stages, which is quite different from what friends who've converted to Judaism and Catholicism have told me about the process for their conversions.


Peter often uses sarcasm, but not always. And I don't think he was doing that here.

Really think about the implications of what people have posted--Katie signed on to be a beard with a written contract assuring her money after five years. That's basically calling her a high-priced prostitute.
Maybe men and women over the centuries who entered into economic marriages/marriages for security/arranged marriages are/were high-priced prostitutes, but then I don't have a problem with contractual arrangements that aren't based on coercion or fraud.

If she had an economic arrangement for X years and received her own dowry, so what? I think that shows as much agency as marrying for love, which is what I think she did.


Saying Katie had no idea of what she was getting into implies a 28yo woman is less capable of making important life decisions than a bunch of skating fans posting on the internet.
I disagree. Given that she was involved with Cruise over five years ago, many of her colleagues who seemed like normal, successful people were Scientologists of various levels, and the high-profile and highly publicized defections are fairly recent, I don't think anyone who isn't brought up with Scientology has any idea of what it's really like or what it really means. Plenty of people get in over their heads.

The courtship was cleverly orchestrated, and she was the one who talked about telling her high school friends she was going to marry Prince Charles Tom Cruise, her childhood crush. That would have set her up if her marriage broke up under most circumstances.


Assuming Katie is a dupe or beard isn't exactly complimentary, and Peter was pointing that out.
I'm sure neither was meant to be complimentary, but I don't think anyone is obligated to be complimentary, even if the majority are giving her the "You Go Grl!"




I speak up about anyone who is getting ganged up on. It’s not about the person in question, it’s about the posts that go too far in my opinion. I also post often in the Tonya Harding threads because she is also ganged up on. Michael Weiss is an example from the past. I’d be in the Patrick Chan threads more often, but there’s too many and they are too long, I’d never get anything else done with my day! :lol:
Where is your defense of Tom Cruise? He's the one getting ganged up on.