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View Full Version : Minimum Total Technical Scores for 2012-13 ISU Championships (including Jr Worlds)



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gkelly
06-29-2012, 01:15 PM
If the National champ can't earn that minimum score but someone else from her country can, maybe that someone else was the better choice all along... :slinkaway

Not necessarily, because maybe the national champion is a better skater and deservedly consistently has a larger advantage in PCS than the one who earned the minimum score has in TES.

Of course with any system, sometimes the best skater in the country is not the one who has the best day at nationals.

But what if the best skater does have a good day at nationals and easily earns the minimum there (even accounting for generous callers and inflated GOEs at nationals) but didn't have a good day technically at the international competitions?

Euros/4Cs would be another chance to earn the scores for Worlds . . . unless the skater doesn't even already have the international score needed to gain entry there.


I don't think quality of skating skills per se will decrease significantly because skaters still need to have the skill level to execute the elements successfully -- especially level 3+ step sequences.

But the other components might get shoved to bottom priority by skaters who need to focus on executing the elements

E.g., at senior B and even GP events we might see a big difference in approach between skaters who are there trying to earn minimum TES so they can qualify for a bigger event later in the season vs. skaters who have already done so and are there trying to win the competition they're competing in now.

TAHbKA
06-29-2012, 02:05 PM
Perhaps you should avoid Worlds then and just watch the GPF. ;)

That's what I've been doing for several years :P


Unfortunately you are not in the minority, at least on this forum. But it shows how bad it is to this sport, when even the "Fans" want to ban the skaters from competing, and these comments gives the ISU even more support for there damaging rules and ideas. Its just sad.

If i would be a skater from a small federation, i would have no motivation to continue, because its just impossible to make this high minimum score, and its not the same to compete at a senior B, which nobody wants to watch, or even at Euros/4CC. The World Championships are completely different.

If it was up to me I would ban the skaters who represent a country they don't actually live in, don't speak the local language and probably havent been into at all. While I don't mind watching skaters like Katz, Peters, Lee etc I do mind wasting time on skaters like Bychenko, and well, 90% of the ladies in the 4CC - those who can't make it through their local rink comepetition and end up representing other countries. It seems that most of the `small federations' are represented by those skaters anyway, so they might as well have their B competitions and not have a chance to make it to the worlds. It might make them consider twice whether to try representing a country like India or Israel or Azerbaidzhan knowing they don't stand a chance to make it to Euros/Worlds and the best they get is a B competition. May be, just may be, we'll get rid of those and then give the smaller federation a fairer chance. Yes, I realize skaters like Peters will get hurt on the way, but frankly, a skater who can't land a 3 jump and is still in the age to compete in JW perhaps should stick to JW.

seabm7
06-29-2012, 02:41 PM
If it was up to me I would ban the skaters who represent a country they don't actually live in, don't speak the local language and probably havent been into at all.


So you want to ban T & T as well? :confused:

TAHbKA
06-29-2012, 02:42 PM
So you want to ban T & T as well? :confused:

what's t&t?

elfenblüte
06-29-2012, 02:48 PM
That's what I've been doing for several years :P



If it was up to me I would ban the skaters who represent a country they don't actually live in, don't speak the local language and probably havent been into at all. While I don't mind watching skaters like Katz, Peters, Lee etc I do mind wasting time on skaters like Bychenko, and well, 90% of the ladies in the 4CC - those who can't make it through their local rink comepetition and end up representing other countries. It seems that most of the `small federations' are represented by those skaters anyway, so they might as well have their B competitions and not have a chance to make it to the worlds. It might make them consider twice whether to try representing a country like India or Israel or Azerbaidzhan knowing they don't stand a chance to make it to Euros/Worlds and the best they get is a B competition. May be, just may be, we'll get rid of those and then give the smaller federation a fairer chance. Yes, I realize skaters like Peters will get hurt on the way, but frankly, a skater who can't land a 3 jump and is still in the age to compete in JW perhaps should stick to JW.

I dont see the imported skaters as a problem, they may can help to develope the sport in the respective country. Sure there are also negative examples, but the ISU cant control this with any rule, its up to the national federation which skater might represent their country.
But to exclude the majority of ISU members from competing at the World Championships, this is definitely not the right way.

Clara Peters is a very good example to make Figure skating more popular. Her possibilities are very limited, but she really tries to do the best, even she can land only double jumps. She really enjoys to compete and she shows that in her programs, i love to watch her! She wouldnt have such a great success if she would have been excluded from the big Championships. I prefer to watch skaters from small federations who try their best at Worlds, than the 5th best american or japanese skater.
It is still called the World Championships, and it is normal that there are much more skaters competing and not only the best 20 from maybe 5 countries. It should be reachable for every country in the world.

seabm7
06-29-2012, 02:53 PM
what's t&t?

Takahashi and Tran. I was in a hurry, so I just wrote their initials. My bad. :)

TAHbKA
06-29-2012, 03:05 PM
Takahashi and Tran. I was in a hurry, so I just wrote their initials. My bad. :)
I always assumed Takahashi was from Japan, spoke Japanese, learned to skate in Japan etc. Forgive me if I got it all wrong.


I dont see the imported skaters as a problem, they may can help to develope the sport in the respective country.

Coming from one of those countries - in theory it all looks nice, in practice it means that instead of attempting to grow something in the country the federation keeps importing useless skaters and sending them to the competitions rather than equally useless local. It is much easier to import a skate who will train anyway (on their parents expense!) in the USA than invest in the fasilities in the country. The ice rink in Israel used to function far better when the centre of the skating was in Israel. Ever since it shifted to the USA I don't see anyone skating in Metulla. Sure, it all began with the imported skaters such as Shmerkin and Chait/Sakhnovski, but there were things that were happening here (Zarertskis, Katz, Krasnopolski, Bugrov) till the import became much more appealing (Bychenko, Syken, Serov, Bardakova etc)


Sure there are also negative examples, but the ISU cant control this with any rule, its up to the national federation which skater might represent their country.

Can you give me one example of the positive example? Seriously, I can think of Israel, Azerbaidzhan, Uzbekistan, Kirgizstan etc.



But to exclude the majority of ISU members from competing at the World Championships, this is definitely not the right way.

There is a huge number of the skaters who shouldn't be there at the first place...



Clara Peters is a very good example to make Figure skating more popular. Her possibilities are very limited, but she really tries to do the best, even she can land only double jumps. She really enjoys to compete and she shows that in her programs, i love to watch her! She wouldnt have such a great success if she would have been excluded from the big Championships. I prefer to watch skaters from small federations who try their best at Worlds, than the 5th best american or japanese skater.

Your right. I don't enjoy it one little bit. Peters is fine when there is just Peters. When there are 20 skaters on Peter's level the whole competition becomse one happy tea break.
As for Peters - she was born in 1991 and 've been cometing in the seniors level since 2008. What do the rules say? Till when she could compete in Juniors?


It is still called the World Championships, and it is normal that there are much more skaters competing and not only the best 20 from maybe 5 countries. It should be reachable for every country in the world.
Exactly. Not 30 Americans and 20 Russians representing the rest of the world. Since right now it's the case - we might as well give up watching 15 of them

Skittl1321
06-29-2012, 03:25 PM
I always assumed Takahashi was from Japan, spoke Japanese, learned to skate in Japan etc. Forgive me if I got it all wrong.


Takahashi is. Tran, however, is Canadian, has never lived in Japan and does not speak the language.

The coach thought it was important that a skater of Asian heritage partner with Takahashi , becauses the look would be "right". Apparently it has fooled some, as Tran is very much an "import" skater.


I think as long as the skaters who hop citizenship do make an effort to develop the sport in the country they adopt, it is actually a good thing. If they never travel to the country at all, and do nothing to help others, then I am against the practice. But honestly, having an adopted citizen who can help collect supplies, who can teach workshops, and who can give the country someone to cheer for (I think Amanda Evora said she never realized how much the Philippines was behind her in the Olympics, despite her skating for the US) really does support skating development.

mazzy
06-29-2012, 03:29 PM
Going to be the minority here, but thank you, ISU. Not having any patriotic or personal feelings towards the skaters from the small countries I'm bored ouf ot my skin watching the skaters' desperate attempts to land a 2T and failing. If I only get to see Russian/Japanese/USA/Canadian skaters with an occasional Spanish/French/German/whatever - fine. But at least I don't get to sit through 50 ladies SPs wondering whether I'm a masochist or something wrong with the rules.
That's an argument I never understood. Nobody's forcing you to watch the competition from start to finish and there is a seeding procedure to make sure you can skip the first groups.

seabm7
06-29-2012, 03:53 PM
I always assumed Takahashi was from Japan, spoke Japanese, learned to skate in Japan etc. Forgive me if I got it all wrong.



You are right. I should have said Tran of T & T, not both of them.

Concerning Takahashi, she started as a single skater in Japan, then learned her basic pair skills in China while she lived there. She even competed at the 2004 Chinese Championships with a Chinese partner. She moved back to Japan and tried a Japanese partner, but it did not work out well. At the end, she found Tran in Canada and has been training in Canada.

ioana
06-29-2012, 04:21 PM
The skaters who are competitive for medals at the World Championships pace themselves throughout the skating season so that they peak at Worlds. The Grand Prix Final is three months before Worlds when the skaters are still building up their programs, so it is hardly a "best of the best" event.

I should have made that more clear and explained I was referring to the level of the skaters competing. For the most part a slightly off-peak Kostner, Takahashi, etc will still present a very high standard of skating. The way the ISU wants to limit Worlds to the top 18 skaters (or thereabouts), is also turning the event into a second GPF.

victoriaheidi
06-29-2012, 04:52 PM
If it was up to me I would ban the skaters who represent a country they don't actually live in, don't speak the local language and probably havent been into at all. While I don't mind watching skaters like Katz, Peters, Lee etc I do mind wasting time on skaters like Bychenko, and well, 90% of the ladies in the 4CC - those who can't make it through their local rink comepetition and end up representing other countries. It seems that most of the `small federations' are represented by those skaters anyway, so they might as well have their B competitions and not have a chance to make it to the worlds. It might make them consider twice whether to try representing a country like India or Israel or Azerbaidzhan knowing they don't stand a chance to make it to Euros/Worlds and the best they get is a B competition. May be, just may be, we'll get rid of those and then give the smaller federation a fairer chance. Yes, I realize skaters like Peters will get hurt on the way, but frankly, a skater who can't land a 3 jump and is still in the age to compete in JW perhaps should stick to JW.

I can't speak for all of these, but for the record, Tamar Katz lived in Israel for an extended portion of her childhood. I mean, yeah, her reason for competing for Israel is a reason you'd probably dislike (she wanted to circumvent the US testing structure and she lived in Israel), but still--she is quite familiar with the country she represented!

TAHbKA
06-29-2012, 04:54 PM
I think as long as the skaters who hop citizenship do make an effort to develop the sport in the country they adopt, it is actually a good thing. If they never travel to the country at all, and do nothing to help others, then I am against the practice. But honestly, having an adopted citizen who can help collect supplies, who can teach workshops, and who can give the country someone to cheer for (I think Amanda Evora said she never realized how much the Philippines was behind her in the Olympics, despite her skating for the US) really does support skating development.

Yes. Well, it all sounds great in theory. In practice those skaters can't be bothered flying half a way across the globe to give a workshop actually, to whom? The local kids don't necessarily speak English, the `star' doesn't speak the local language. The local kids will not bother attempting to land a 2T when they know they will never participate a single event anyway.

Again, all those points above are great in theory, but in practice there are several `federations' with American/Russian skaters only. If this rule will eliminate those `federations' am all for it.

victoriaheidi
06-29-2012, 04:55 PM
Also, sorry for the double post, but I'm not into the concept of a minimum technical requirement (especially for JW!). I don't mind a minimum score (TES and PCS), but I mind the concept of a minimum tech score because it suggests that there's only one component to skating. It completely ignores a skater with strong artistic inclinations in favor of one who can jump or whatever, with zero regards towards the fact that the artistic skater perhaps had the higher overall score.

A full-score minimum is something I'd agree with, maybe. But never at JW!

ioana
06-29-2012, 05:27 PM
A full-score minimum is something I'd agree with, maybe. But never at JW!

What about the infamous Indian pair on the JGP? I wouldn't blame other coaches and teams if they'd rather not be on the same warm-up ice as someone who is a safety risk for the other skaters entered into an event. I am open to debating TES vs PCS -and especially what the requirements should be, but I see nothing wrong with having some min requirements. Problem is, the current Senior requirements for Worlds are anything but minimal.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSV0Ei8GlsU