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Skittl1321
06-28-2012, 07:18 PM
The more I think about it, the more I think it is almost offensive that there is no requirement for PCS at all. I know there is a lot more "swing" in that mark, but that is like the ISU is saying that components are a completely unimportant part of skating.

gkelly
06-28-2012, 07:30 PM
What will happen sometimes is that skater A will be qualified to enter Worlds and skater B will not even if skater B had defeated skater A in competition every time they competed against each other in the past year, on the strength of PCS.

This will be especially embarrassing if a federation has to tell their national champion the ISU won't let them go to Worlds but will allow the 2nd or 3rd place finisher.

barbk
06-28-2012, 08:03 PM
What will happen sometimes is that skater A will be qualified to enter Worlds and skater B will not even if skater B had defeated skater A in competition every time they competed against each other in the past year, on the strength of PCS.

This will be especially embarrassing if a federation has to tell their national champion the ISU won't let them go to Worlds but will allow the 2nd or 3rd place finisher.

Didn't Sweden set different Olympic qualifying standards for younger athletes than for older athletes, and that kept Schultheiss home and Berntsson the olympic entrant even though Berntsson only came in second at nationals?

There are plenty of sports that require qualification standards, and as long as there is a standard, somebody, somewhere, is going to fall afoul of it. Is this the right number? I don't know -- it seems a bit high. A point or two lower might be better.

How would Lepisto have fared? That might indicate something about what the ISU's thoughts are on technical content. ( I think we can put paid to the old slogan that a well-done double is better than a poorly done triple.)

gkelly
06-28-2012, 08:26 PM
Didn't Sweden set different Olympic qualifying standards for younger athletes than for older athletes, and that kept Schultheiss home and Berntsson the olympic entrant even though Berntsson only came in second at nationals?

Not sure. That may be true.


There are plenty of sports that require qualification standards, and as long as there is a standard, somebody, somewhere, is going to fall afoul of it. Is this the right number? I don't know -- it seems a bit high. A point or two lower might be better.

Yes, wherever you draw the cutoff, there are going to be people who just fail to make the cut.

My point is that the cutoff is based on only half the score. So you may have someone who makes the cutoff but consistently loses to someone who does not make the cutoff because that other skater is better at the other half of the scoring.

Of course, you can also have skater C make the minimum score at an event with a generous tech panel, or a judging panel who are especially generous on GOEs, whereas skater D never got to compete at an event with such generous panels and never quite made the minimum, although D always beat C at the events where they went head to head.



How would Lepisto have fared? That might indicate something about what the ISU's thoughts are on technical content. ( I think we can put paid to the old slogan that a well-done double is better than a poorly done triple.)

Lepisto's TES at 2010 Worlds where she medaled (her last competition) were 34.98 for the SP and 54.24 for the FS, so well above the new cutoffs of 28.00 and 48.00.

Remember, though, that there were still leveled spiral sequences that year. Delete the 5.20 she got for the spiral sequence in her Worlds SP, and she'd have 29.78 for the SP. Assume the same GOE in the FS and change the base mark from level 4 to Choreo and she'd lose 1.40, ending up with 52.84.

So she'd still easily make the cutoff, but with less of a margin, especially in the short.

The current rules aren't dictating technical content. It doesn't matter what elements the skater used to meet the minimum as long as it was met. +GOE on every element can earn more points than lower average execution of greater content.

allezfred
06-28-2012, 08:37 PM
Anyway, the "smaller" federations, naturally more concerned by the preliminaries (although CAN, RUS, FRA etc also had skaters in the preliminaries at Euros and Worlds or Junior Worlds, even Plushenko skated in the preliminaries) apparently didn't like the idea of paying something themselves, no matter how good or weak their skater is.

Not all of the "smaller" federations voted to remove the preliminaries. Ireland for one certainly did not. It's a shame the majority of federations did not think ahead the consequences of their votes though.

I absolutely agree that I don't see any reason why skaters should have their accommodation paid for by the organisers. Most sports that I'm familiar with skating is the exception rather than the rule. And the way the accommodation for the preliminaries was organised whereby you had to pay for your stay in advance in cash and then if you qualified you received your cash back was truly ridiculous.

I heard the vast majority of the skaters in the preliminaries didn't even end up paying. I would have barred them from getting on the ice in the first place. That would have cut down on numbers. :P


The minimum scores for Worlds are certainly tough. However, as the ISU communication states, it can be adjusted if too many (or too few) skaters achieve it. They have raised the bar. Again, in other sports the criteria are also tough sometimes to get to Worlds or the Olympic Games (athletics for example).

But (and since you used athletics as an example ;)), there is an A standard in athletics where you can send three athletes and if no-one from your country has an A standard then you can send one B standard athlete. If you have no B standard athlete, you are then allowed one entry across all disciplines.

Figure skating limits the amount of athletes who can compete in an Olympics to 30 in singles, 24 in dance and 20 in pairs. I would argue that it is much more difficult to have a figure skater in the Olympics than in athletics certainly.


Finally, many feel that going to Worlds is very important for skaters from "developing" countries. I think these skaters can learn as much from participating in the Junior Grand Prix, Junior Worlds and International B events (where there are usually some top skaters). Worlds is a prestigious event and should feature the best. Yuna Kim came from a developing country and went through the Junior circuit. When she debuted at Worlds in 2007, she took the bronze right away. She didn't need to go to Worlds to learn. Maybe she is not a good example as she is an extraordinary talented skater, but it shows that if there is a real talent, it will come through.

No, Yuna Kim is not a good example. Besides the fact that she didn't appear in isolation. She would have grown up seeing Korean skaters older than her getting the opportunity to go off to Worlds and knew that if she practised hard enough she would have the chance to be the best in her country and do the same. If there had been restrictions like the one being imposed now 20 or 30 years ago, the chances of seeing a Yuna Kim or Shen/Zhao even would have been so much less in my opinion.

In terms of promoting a sport and appealing to the domestic public, media, sponsors and government funding departments, you can go to all the B competitions, Junior Grand Prixs and Junior Worlds, but what really gets the attention are Europeans, Worlds and Olympics. There is no comparison.

As for the skaters going to Worlds, it is most definitely an important learning experience. Perhaps a certain skater won't do terribly went at their first Worlds or even their entire career. But if they become a coach and a skater they teach gets to compete at Worlds they can impart the knowledge they picked up from their experience.

Not every country has a long tradition and breadth expertise in figure skating like countries such as Russia, the US or Canada which makes it even more important that skaters from countries where figure skating human resources are scarce get to go to Worlds.

Some smaller federations are working really hard to develop figure skating in their countries (and not go the Azerbaijan/Israel route) but with the balance of power so heavily skewed to the established nations it really is an uphill struggle. I don't think it should be underestimated how demotivating effectively barring a whole raft of countries from Worlds will be for them as organisations.


The only problem I have with not everyone being able to go to Worlds is that in many countries federations might loose funding if they are not attending ISU Championships.

Some federations get no public funding at all so that's the least of their problems. :lol:

kwanfan1818
06-28-2012, 08:52 PM
What will happen sometimes is that skater A will be qualified to enter Worlds and skater B will not even if skater B had defeated skater A in competition every time they competed against each other in the past year, on the strength of PCS.

This will be especially embarrassing if a federation has to tell their national champion the ISU won't let them go to Worlds but will allow the 2nd or 3rd place finisher.
While I agree about PCS, your scenario would have applied to Canadian Ladies this year based on TES: neither Lacoste nor silver medalist Phaneuf met the TES minimum by Worlds. Kaetlyn Osmond did, but only at Junior Worlds, which this year is back-to-back with Worlds. Skate Canada might have sent Lacoste and Pfaneuf to one of the many post-Nationals Senior B's to try to earn it.

There's no exemption from minimum scores for the host nation. I hope Canada has a contingency travel budget for Senior B's: they might need it for Ladies to qualify for a spot in London. Osmond hasn't skated seniors internationally, and it isn't clear that Orser can get Phaneuf over the hump, although both Lacoste and Phaneuf were within two points at least for the SP. I haven't even checked the FS.


Can minimum TES be earned in any ISU-sanctioned competitions?
Short answer: yes, as long as it meets the ISU minimum requirements re: number and distribution of participants and judges, etc.

Detail:
Communication 1742 says,

The Minimum Total Technical Score (not including Component Scores) is a Technical Score and must have been reached in an ISU recognized International Competition (as per Article 38, paragraph 7 of the ISU Constitution and Rule 107, paragraphs 1 to 9 of the ISU General Regulations) during the ongoing or immediately preceding season in both segments, Short Program/Short Dance and Free Skating/Free Dance (See ISU Special Regulations Single & Pair Skating Ice Dance 2010, Rule 378, paragraph 3).

Article 38, paragraph 7 of the ISU Constitution:

7. International Competitions/Local Competitions
International Competitions are competitive events (ISU Events and other events) as listed under Rule 107, paragraph 1-11. The Olympic Winter Games (OWG) and the Winter Youth Olympic Games (YOG) are administered by the ISU as International Competitions (see Rule 107, paragraph 2 and 3 and Rule 126). Local Competitions are defined under Rule 107, paragraph 14.

Rule 107, paragraphs 1-9 of the ISU General Regulations:
1-List of ISU Championships for Figure and Speed Skating
2-Olympic Winter Games
3-Winter Youth Olympic Games


4. Definition of International Competition
An International Competition under paragraphs 5 to 13 is a competition for
which:
a) the organizing Member invites at least one foreign Member to participate;
b) the entry of competitors can be made only through the respective Members;
c) competitors from at least two Members participate;
d) conducted in accordance with the Rules of the ISU;
e) in all International Competitions organized as a series, television and advertising agreements must be authorized by the ISU Director General to avoid conflicts with ISU contracts.

5-ISU World Cups (speed skating)
6-ISU Grand Prix/Grand Prix Final (figure skating)
7-World Team Trophy


8. International Senior Competitions
a) open to all Members of the ISU;
b) limited to certain countries or restricted in any other way.

9. International Junior Competitions
a) open to all Members of the ISU;
b) limited to certain countries or restricted in any other way.



For example, Misha Ge got 36.37 for TES for his SP at Asian Trophy in 2011.
Does this count?
Yes, under Rule 107.8.b, because it fell during the 2011-12 season, and it met the minimum standards. (Lakernik wouldn't have shown up if it didn't ;)). Unlike for World Standings/World Ranking points, where the competitions must be open, restricted competitions count for earning minimum scores.

Ankka
06-28-2012, 09:10 PM
Wasn't there an increase on the value of the second part of combinations? If so, it would make sense that the ISU think the skaters would end up with higher points. Of course, the requirements seem pretty high anyway.

ioana
06-28-2012, 10:28 PM
I understand the need to set some standards in place, but some of those requirements are prohibitive. Not sure that should be the point of Worlds. We already have the GPF in place for a 'best of the best'-type of event.

kwanfan1818
06-29-2012, 12:05 AM
Didn't Sweden set different Olympic qualifying standards for younger athletes than for older athletes, and that kept Schultheiss home and Berntsson the olympic entrant even though Berntsson only came in second at nationals?
Usually the NOC's that require more than the normal ISU qualifying procedure require an international standard, not a nationals placement.

This sounds familiar, but I thought it was the opposite. In 2006, the only year between 2003-2011 that Berntsson didn't win the National title, both he and Schultheiss went to 2006 Euros, where Berntsson came in 14th and Schultheiss 20th, and Berntsson went to Turin. At 2010 Euros, Shultheiss came in 12th and Berntsson 15th, and Schultheiss went to Vancouver. In both cases, the National champion didn't go.


How would Lepisto have fared? That might indicate something about what the ISU's thoughts are on technical content. ( I think we can put paid to the old slogan that a well-done double is better than a poorly done triple.)



Lepisto's TES at 2010 Worlds where she medaled (her last competition) were 34.98 for the SP and 54.24 for the FS, so well above the new cutoffs of 28.00 and 48.00.

Remember, though, that there were still leveled spiral sequences that year. Delete the 5.20 she got for the spiral sequence in her Worlds SP, and she'd have 29.78 for the SP. Assume the same GOE in the FS and change the base mark from level 4 to Choreo and she'd lose 1.40, ending up with 52.84.
I looked at it to see if had these rules been in place last year for her last competitive season, whether she'd have qualified for Worlds (assuming same judging and quality.) This is dropping high/low, without random selection.

In her last Skate Canada FS, she earned 48.62, but that needs to be adjusted by changes in base value, the GOE scale for jumps, and that change from leveled to CH spiral:

-.94 on the spiral sequence. Her leveled base was 3.1+.4 for mostly 1's in GOE. Under last year's rules, it would have received 2.0+.56 for mostly 1's in GOE as a CH spiral sequence.
+.21 in base for the two 3Lo's, one with 10% bonus: base was raised by .1, .11 for bonus
.3 for reduction in -GOE for 3Lo (-.7 vs. -1.0). No change for 3Lo/2T, all 0 GOE.
+.2 for reduction in -GOE for 3Lz (-.2 vs -.4)
+.3 for reduction in -GOE for 2A (-.5 vs. 0-.8)
-.31 for reduction in +GOE for 2nd 2A (.29 vs. .6)


The net reduction to her TES would have been -.13, so she would have made the minimum for Worlds.

For her SP at Euros 2010, she earned 34.60 and dropping the spiral sequence (2.80), she would have started with 31.80 before the adjustments to base and GOE. She still would have been at or close enough to 30 after that.

That's not even counting the Olympics, where she likely would have made it for the SP, but blew away the 48 in the FS with TES of over 63, the fourth-highest in the competition, after Kim, Nagasu, and Asada, and, even with adjustments, it would have been close or at 60.


Not all of the "smaller" federations voted to remove the preliminaries. Ireland for one certainly did not. It's a shame the majority of federations did not think ahead the consequences of their votes though.
Considering how few of the smaller Federations host championships, what did they think they were getting out of it by voting for it? (Or what was the underlying fear/threat if they didn't?) If they really didn't want to pay to send someone to the prelims, couldn't they just have imposed a minimum standard of their own, like the NOCs?


And the way the accommodation for the preliminaries was organised whereby you had to pay for your stay in advance in cash and then if you qualified you received your cash back was truly ridiculous.
I think you answered why here:


I heard the vast majority of the skaters in the preliminaries didn't even end up paying.
Or, even when the SP was the qualifier, stayed after elimination and tried not to pay for the difference.


I would have barred them from getting on the ice in the first place. That would have cut down on numbers. :P
Exactly.


and if no-one from your country has an A standard then you can send one B standard athlete. If you have no B standard athlete, you are then allowed one entry across all disciplines.
Is the difference that if you have a B standard athlete, you have to send that athlete, otherwise you can choose who you want?


Figure skating limits the amount of athletes who can compete in an Olympics to 30 in singles, 24 in dance and 20 in pairs. I would argue that it is much more difficult to have a figure skater in the Olympics than in athletics certainly.
It's more difficult to have a figure skater in the Olympics than in many sports, because there are so few figure skaters, so few training facilities, and so few competitions, relatively speaking. The barrier to entry is high. Other sports, like ski jumping, might have limited training facilities, but they have a robust competition circuit, and there are generally more lakes to row on than skating rinks.



No, Yuna Kim is not a good example. Besides the fact that she didn't appear in isolation. She would have grown up seeing Korean skaters older than her getting the opportunity to go off to Worlds and knew that if she practised hard enough she would have the chance to be the best in her country and do the same.
Most of the top skaters say they saw skating on TV, usually during the Olympics, and wanted to be like Baiul, Kwan, Browning, Plushenko, Lambiel, etc.

If there had been restrictions like the one being imposed now 20 or 30 years ago, the chances of seeing a Yuna Kim or Shen/Zhao even would have been so much less in my opinion.
I'm not so sure Kim's career trajectory would have been so much different. Certainly her mother knew what it would mean for her to be the first, and step one seems to be "Train elsewhere," whether that be North America, Russia, or Obertsdorf.

A small group of Chinese coaches seemed set on creating a program. I'm not sure Shen/Zhao would never have shown up.

I don't underestimate what participating means to a nation developing a program. Just the experience of knowing what it's like to travel, to check in, to practice around world-class athletes, to negotiate the practice ice, etc. and to be coached by someone who was the first and knows what the experience is like is invaluable. I don't think that experience has to happen at Worlds first, especially now that there's 4C's: Yao Bin and Luan Bo were ridiculed in Dortmund in 1980. There's no reason for this, especially in Europe, to not compete up through the circuit, whether it be the GP or Senior/Junior B competitions, to Euros/4C's and then Worlds. Sending someone outclassed repeatedly to big international events can't do wonders for a developing skater's confidence unless their skin is as thick as a cow's.


In terms of promoting a sport and appealing to the domestic public, media, sponsors and government funding departments, you can go to all the B competitions, Junior Grand Prixs and Junior Worlds, but what really gets the attention are Europeans, Worlds and Olympics. There is no comparison.
The bar for Europeans is still quite low, especially for the Ladies. For the SP, it's barely more than performing the new base level of the minimum required elements at base competency, which I don't see as overly strict for a major championship.

It will be interesting to see what the Olympic minimum scores will be after the ISU does a review after this year. The NOC's are the ones who create their own, stricter criteria and make it a nail-biter about whether ISU-qualified skaters will be allowed in the Olympics, which, TV- and audience-wise, is the big prize.



Some smaller federations are working really hard to develop figure skating in their countries (and not go the Azerbaijan/Israel route) but with the balance of power so heavily skewed to the established nations it really is an uphill struggle. I don't think it should be underestimated how demotivating effectively barring a whole raft of countries from Worlds will be for them as organisations.
Some smaller federations won't/can't pay for a skater and coach to go to Worlds, even when they're held on the same continent with surface rail to get there.

The Australian skaters are screwed: their Federation is weak and has no money, and there's nothing close by.

There are a ton of small sports in North America for which it's worse for the athletes: they're federation officials couldn't even be bothered to be tempted by trips to major championships.

RUKen
06-29-2012, 12:10 AM
I understand the need to set some standards in place, but some of those requirements are prohibitive. Not sure that should be the point of Worlds. We already have the GPF in place for a 'best of the best'-type of event.

The skaters who are competitive for medals at the World Championships pace themselves throughout the skating season so that they peak at Worlds. The Grand Prix Final is three months before Worlds when the skaters are still building up their programs, so it is hardly a "best of the best" event.

Oz_sk8ting_mum
06-29-2012, 12:51 AM
The Australian skaters are screwed: their Federation is weak and has no money, and there's nothing close by.
:(

allezfred
06-29-2012, 01:03 AM
Considering how few of the smaller Federations host championships, what did they think they were getting out of it by voting for it? (Or what was the underlying fear/threat if they didn't?) If they really didn't want to pay to send someone to the prelims, couldn't they just have imposed a minimum standard of their own, like the NOCs?

It wasn't a matter of not wanting to send someone. It was a matter of voting for what was in the best interests of getting our skaters to the championships and not financially burdening the hosting federation at the same time. Preliminary rounds have worked very well for Ireland's skater and I certainly didn't want them gone.

The idea of going back to 50+ ladies SPs was also not appealing. :scream:




Is the difference that if you have a B standard athlete, you have to send that athlete, otherwise you can choose who you want?

You don't have to send anyone (not even if they have an A standard). A B standard only give you the right to enter that athlete into that specific event.




Most of the top skaters say they saw skating on TV, usually during the Olympics, and wanted to be like Baiul, Kwan, Browning, Plushenko, Lambiel, etc.

But it's having skaters from your own country competing at the big events that gives you the belief that it is something that you can attain.


I'm not so sure Kim's career trajectory would have been so much different. Certainly her mother knew what it would mean for her to be the first, and step one seems to be "Train elsewhere," whether that be North America, Russia, or Obertsdorf.

But Yuna wasn't the first Korean skater to compete at Worlds or even the Olympics. Yuna has been in the making ever since the first Korean skater competed at Worlds. The experience and expertise gained through that by the Korean federation undoubtedly benefited Yuna

I'm here at Year Zero for figure skating in Ireland. Even if we had someone as phenomenally talented as Yuna (and we may have), you can't make a world champion/medallist on talent alone. You need to have the right guidance and good advice. And you don't get that until you have a core group of people in your country who are able to provide that.



There's no reason for this, especially in Europe, to not compete up through the circuit, whether it be the GP or Senior/Junior B competitions, to Euros/4C's and then Worlds. Sending someone outclassed repeatedly to big international events can't do wonders for a developing skater's confidence unless their skin is as thick as a cow's.

Everybody has different expectations going into Worlds. Most skaters are there, as cliched as it sounds, to represent their country and do their best. Most skaters are realistic and know they aren't going to be medallists or even in the top ten. It isn't about what other skaters do or how much better they are. If that were the case 99% of skaters would look at Yuna Kim and not bother even showing up.

As for going to the GP, that's not going to work if you can't skate at Worlds now is it. :P

Skating up through competitions is pretty much the natural progression of the season so I'm not sure what your point is. And if a skaters wants to go to Worlds or Euros/4CC they have to do Senior Bs in any case.



Some smaller federations won't/can't pay for a skater and coach to go to Worlds, even when they're held on the same continent with surface rail to get there.

The Australian skaters are screwed: their Federation is weak and has no money, and there's nothing close by.

There are a ton of small sports in North America for which it's worse for the athletes: they're federation officials couldn't even be bothered to be tempted by trips to major championships.

Many small federations have very little money. Federation officials and skaters all pay their own way to championships. Would it be nice if they didn't have to? Yes, of course. But I don't see anything wrong with having to pay your own way to a championships. Even more because as much as some people may pretend otherwise skating is a sport for people who are already well off in comparison to most people in this world.

kwanfan1818
06-29-2012, 01:34 AM
As for going to the GP, that's not going to work if you can't skate at Worlds now is it. :P
Sorry, meant to type "JGP".


Skating up through competitions is pretty much the natural progression of the season so I'm not sure what your point is. And if a skaters wants to go to Worlds or Euros/4CC they have to do Senior Bs in any case.


The point is that you stay at the international competition level until you're strong qualify for Euros/4C's, and then when you're strong enough, you qualify for Worlds. (I'm talking about smaller federations where there aren't many strong skaters, and it was an instant entry to the qualis at championships. The Olympics are a different story.) That wasn't the case until there were minimum scores a couple of years ago, and barely so with the original minimums, where for Ladies, you didn't even need to have minimum content to reach them.

YukiNieve
06-29-2012, 05:09 AM
Thank you, kwanfan1818!!

Ziggy
06-29-2012, 06:02 AM
The minimum score for Worlds is absolutely ridiculous! Even some of the better Ladies wouldnt meet this minimum score for the World Championships, let alone all the skaters from smaller federations. I am so sad we will never see skaters from smaller federations at Worlds again. The ISU destroyed the Championships with this new rule. I cant believe they increased it so drastically, its horrible! :(((

This is true but it is the direct result of the total disaster that was the federations voting to scrap the Preliminary Rounds. They have only themselves to blame. :duh:

This will harm the development of skating massively. :(