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hanca
06-27-2012, 06:44 PM
I like it this way more.

When there were the qualifying rounds, each skater (from the smaller skating federations) had only one chance to qualify, and the number of places were limited. Now the skaters need to reach some qualifying score, but they may attend several competitions. They have as many attempts as their association can afford (or their own pocket can afford). They are not fighting for some limited amount of places, they are fighting to get the right score, so one could argue that it is in their own hands. There is a chance that more skaters will reach the score than if there was just a limit on the number of places who can qualify.

barbk
06-27-2012, 06:46 PM
Did the federations vote for these qualifying scores? Were they presented with the information of how exactly the qual. scores would change if the qualifying round was eliminated?

Did they re-elect Speedy? :shuffle: It isn't as if he didn't have a record of allowing lots of decisions like this without the involvement of the Congress.

I'm surprised they went as high as they did, but I'm not at all surprised that the qualifying scores were raised, and they shouldn't be either.

Perhaps this will be even further incentive for federations to sponsor more Senior B's and qualifying junior events.

kwanfan1818
06-27-2012, 06:46 PM
17 of 30 of the Ladies in Nice, 11 of the 24 who skated the FS, did not score 28 in the SP:

Marchei, McCorkell, Lacoste, Silete, Czisny, Lafuente, Korobeynikova, Popova, Hecken, Frank, Mikonsaari, and the six Ladies who didn't make the FS.

Silete and Korobeynikova earned the minimum at Euros (and may have at other competitions). Czisny at GPF, Popova and Silete at NRW, Frank and Marchei at International Challenge Cup.

Hecken narrowly missed at Nebelhorn. Lafuente narrowly missed at TEB. Lacoste's highest score was 26+. Unless I've missed a score, McCorkell and Mikonsaari weren't even close. All would have qualified for Euros/4C's, with a minimum of 20.

I didn't check the six who didn't make the free skate. Since the FS scores in the Prelims (http://www.isuresults.com/results/wc2012/SEG002.HTM) for those who didn't qualify for the SP ranged from 23-~37, I doubt that any of them scored 28 in the SP in international competition. (I didn't see any notable SP skaters in this group.)

Lafuente's base content at Golden Spin -- 3F, 3Lo/2T, 2A, 2-L3 spins, 1-L4 spin, and L3 FW, not exactly shabby -- was 27; the TES minimum for Worlds is 28.

hanca
06-27-2012, 06:51 PM
17 of 30 of the Ladies in Nice, 11 of the 24 who skated the FS, did not score 28 in the SP:

Marchei, McCorkell, Lacoste, Silete, Czisny, Lafuente, Korobeynikova, Popova, Hecken, Frank, Mikonsaari, and the six Ladies who didn't make the FS.

Silete and Korobeynikova earned the minimum at Euros (and may have at other competitions). Czisny at GPF, Popova and Silete at NRW, Frank and Marchei at International Challenge Cup.

Hecken narrowly missed at Nebelhorn. Lafuente narrowly missed at TEB. Lacoste's highest score was 26+. Unless I've missed a score, McCorkell and Mikonsaari weren't even close. All would have qualified for Euros/4C's, with a minimum of 20.

I didn't check the six who didn't make the free skate. Since the FS scores in the Prelims (http://www.isuresults.com/results/wc2012/SEG002.HTM) for those who didn't qualify for the SP ranged from 23-~37, I doubt that any of them scored 28 in the SP in international competition. (I didn't see any notable SP skaters in this group.)

Lafuente's base content at Golden Spin -- 3F, 3Lo/2T, 2A, 2-L3 spins, 1-L4 spin, and L3 FW, not exactly shabby -- was 27; the TES minimum for Worlds is 28.

OMG! I didn't realise that skaters like Marchei, McCorkell, Lacoste, Silete, Czisny, Lafuente, Korobeynikova, Popova, Hecken, Frank, Mikonsaari wouldn't qualify! That's really harsh. But I think there will be a way around it, such as inflated scores at B competitions, because I can't imagine that they would want to have Worlds with only 13 ladies.

Also, the skaters will have more attempts than just one to reach the score.

kwanfan1818
06-27-2012, 06:54 PM
Did the federations vote for these qualifying scores?
They don't have to: the power lies in the hands of the ISU Council, not the Congress. They justified it in 1742 as having been in response to the vote by Congress, but they could have done it without the change.


Were they presented with the information of how exactly the qual. scores would change if the qualifying round was eliminated?
One the one hand, I don't think the smaller federations would have voted for elimination of prelims if they had been told, but that assumes that they are that naive/stupid. The only upside for them is not paying expenses for skaters who don't make the later rounds, since the majority don't host championships. On the other hand, Canada knew enough to make a stink about not being able to afford Worlds with the elimination of preliminaries, and I doubt that David Dore didn't know.

Skittl1321
06-27-2012, 07:18 PM
OMG! I didn't realise that skaters like Marchei, McCorkell, Lacoste, Silete, Czisny, Lafuente, Korobeynikova, Popova, Hecken, Frank, Mikonsaari wouldn't qualify! That's really harsh. But I think there will be a way around it, such as inflated scores at B competitions, because I can't imagine that they would want to have Worlds with only 13 ladies.

Also, the skaters will have more attempts than just one to reach the score.

Some of them would qualify- Czisny for example met it at Skate America and GPF. If I understand, they don't have to get that score at World's- they have to get it somewhere to qualify for worlds (though I can't get the document to open. Is there still a cut from SP to free?). Using Czisny's world's score (where she totally bombed) is a bit misleading. Others on that list met the score in other competitions.

BUT it does show that these "big name" skaters don't always meet that score- so there is very little hope for the low ranking skaters.


I do have a small amount of worry that if the field becomes so small at World's it will risk figure skating as an Olympic sport. The Olympics thinks that the competitiveness of multiple nations is a very important factor. If figure skating becomes all about one or two nations (like softball) it could be in trouble (though as a 'flagship' type sport, this is unlikely.)

SamuraiK
06-27-2012, 07:23 PM
From day 1 people said this was a very stupid move by the smaller federations.. Now they are in the hands of the COunsil's decisions at least until the 2014 congress.

kwanfan1818
06-27-2012, 07:23 PM
OMG! I didn't realise that skaters like Marchei, McCorkell, Lacoste, Silete, Czisny, Lafuente, Korobeynikova, Popova, Hecken, Frank, Mikonsaari wouldn't qualify! That's really harsh. But I think there will be a way around it, such as inflated scores at B competitions, because I can't imagine that they would want to have Worlds with only 13 ladies.

Also, the skaters will have more attempts than just one to reach the score.
As I wrote, Silete, Marchei, Czisny, Korobeynikova, Popova, and Frank met the minimum before Worlds. Lafuente and Hecken had at least one 27+-point score, and Lacoste a 26+-point score. Only McCorkell and Mikonsaari didn't come close to the Worlds minimum.

I was trying to give context to how high 28 TES is, based on last year's Worlds. All but two were capable of earning 28, and McCorkell could if she got back into shape, but it's going to be tough. Hecken had four tries -- one GP and three Senior B's -- and Lafuente one GP and two Senior B's.

Skate Canada would have had a problem in 2011-12 if these rules had been in place: neither Pfaneuf nor Lacoste earned the 28. (Both had 26.X.) The only Canadian to earn the new minimum would have been Kaetlyn Osmond, who earned 28.46 at Jr. Worlds.

It will be interesting to see if the minimum scores are applied to the Olympics. They likely will impact Olympic selection next year, especially if they're not adjusted. (If the ISU is monitoring scores to see the potential impact at Worlds, it would be very helpful if they maintained the list of highest SP scores, including international competitions, on the website.)

At this rate, perhaps the scenario where Canada does not qualify a Ladies' spot for Sochi at either London Worlds or the Olympic qualifier, and Rochette is enlisted to skate the team event is a little more likely.

Andrey aka Pushkin
06-27-2012, 07:30 PM
Either I don't understand something, or Worlds are going to be a slightly extended version of GP event.

In 2012 SP we had :
13 men
12 pairs
12 ladies
8 ice-dance couples

that made the required minimum.
:confused:
Is there any point we're supposed to get?

SamuraiK
06-27-2012, 07:41 PM
Men who scored more than 35 in the 2011-2012 season (I'll try to consolidate data for all categories/segments when im back from work)

BEL
JoriK Hendrickx
Kevin Van Der Perren (Retired)
CAN
Andrei Rogozine
Kevin Reynolds
Patrick Chan
CHN
Han Yan
Jialiang Wu (Retired)
Jinlin Guan
Nan Song
CZE
Tomas Verner
Michal Brezina
ESP
Javier Fernandez
javier Raya
FRA
Brian Joubert
Chafik Besseghier
Florent Amodio
GER
Peter Liebers
ITA
Paolo Bacchini
Samuel Contesti (Retired)
JPN
Daisuke Murakami
Daisuke Takahashi
Keiji Tanaka
Kento Nakamura
Nobunari Oda
Ryuju HIno
Takahiko Kozuka
Takahito Mura
Tatsuki Machida
Yuzuru Hanyu
KAZ
Denis Ten
ROU
Zoltan Kelemen
RUS
Artem Grigoriev (Retired)
Artur Dmitriev
Artur Gachinski
Evgeni Plushenko
Ivan Bariev
Ivan Tretiakov
Konstantin Menshov
Zhan Bush
SWE
Alexander Majkorov
USA
Adam Rippon
Brandon Mroz
Grant Hochstein
Jason Brown
Jeremy Abott
Joshua Farris
Keegan Messing
Max Aaron
Richard Dornbush
Ross Miner
Stephen Carriere

Noticeables absences: Kim Lucine, Viktor Pfeifer, Misha Ge, Christopher Caluza.

If we take into account spots aviailables for each federation we have only 22 Men competing at worlds so far..:rolleyes::(:scream:

Trying to look at the positive side, this could be a precedent for increasing the numbers of spots by country?

Skittl1321
06-27-2012, 07:53 PM
Either I don't understand something, or Worlds are going to be a slightly extended version of GP event.

In 2012 SP we had :
13 men
12 pairs
12 ladies
8 ice-dance couples


It isn't who got the score in the short program at world's, but people who got the score anytime during the season who can qualify (then narrowed down by the country entry limits)

So it is very limited, but not quite as limited as you listed. It does seem like it will just be an extended grand prix though.

Maybe they should scrap the country limits and just take the top X skaters from the season (by score, not by ranking- because the senior B's in Europe always skew that).

SamuraiK
06-27-2012, 08:01 PM
Ladies who scored 28 or plus in the SP during the 2011-2012 season:


CAN
Kaetlyn Osmond
CHN
Bingwa Geng
Kexin Zhang
Zijun Li
Ziquan Zhao
GEO
Elene Gedevanishvili
EST
Elena Glebova
Gerli Liinamae
FIN
Juulia Turkkila
Kiira Korpi
FRA
Lenaelle Gilleron-Gory
Mae Berenice Meite
Yretha Silete
ITA
Carolina Kostner
Valentina Marchei
JPN
Akiko Suzuki
Haruna Suzuki
Haruka Imai
Mao Asada
Miu Sato
Kako tomotaki
Kanako Murakami
Risa Shoji
Satoko Miyahara
Yuki Nishino
KOR
Hae-Jin Kim
RUS
Adelina Sotnikova
Alena Leonova
Anna Ovcharova
Anna Shershak
Elizaveta Tuktamysheva
Julia Lipnistskaya
Ksenia Makarova
Kristina Zaseeva
Maria Artemieva
Maria Stavistkaya
Polina Agafonova
Polina Korobeynikova
Polina Shelepen
Sofia Biryukova
SLO
Patricia Glescic
SWE
Joshi Helgesson
Viktoria Helgesson
UKR
Natalia Popova
USA
Agnes Zawadski
Alissa Czisny
Ashley Wagner
Caroline Zhang
Christina Gao
Gracie Gold
Mirai Nagasu
Rachael Flatt
Samantha Cesario
Vanessa Lam

Noticeable absences: Sarah Hecken, Ming Jung Kwak, Sonia Lafuente, Amelie Lacoste

That's again only 22 ladies spots so far for the World Championships!:mad::scream::(:lol:

allezfred
06-27-2012, 08:08 PM
From day 1 people said this was a very stupid move by the smaller federations..

Not all the smaller federations voted against retaining the preliminaries. Let's not lump them all in together.

morqet
06-27-2012, 08:12 PM
Ladies who scored 28 or plus in the SP during the 2011-2012 season:

...

That's again only 22 ladies spots so far for the World Championships!:mad::scream::(:lol:

But of those ladies, how many of them also met the required FS TES mark? It could drop even further!

Andrey aka Pushkin
06-27-2012, 08:13 PM
It isn't who got the score in the short program at world's, but people who got the score anytime during the season who can qualify (then narrowed down by the country entry limits)

Of course, but I'm not as hardcore to check every single SP TES. But I think the worlds results give a good indication; after all this is what they're all supposed to achieve.


Maybe they should scrap the country limits and just take the top X skaters from the season (by score, not by ranking- because the senior B's in Europe always skew that).
I would HATE that.
Figure skating is a personal sport, but it's funded and supported by the federations; it's not tennis.
We already have the "private club" of the big federations, and it's called the GP series.