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miki88
06-28-2012, 10:15 AM
I don't feel Irina's artistry is much better than Ando. She always appeared awkward to me and while she was athletic, I never found her jumps as appealing as Kwan's. So I voted for her.

antmanb
06-28-2012, 10:26 AM
i really am disgusted by how you take 2012 worlds as eksemple cause that performance was a not how mao has been performing during the whole season... and the same goes for your eksempel from the olympics 2010, after that performance Mao herself said that, she was shocked to make a mistake on the toe cause it's usuelly a very easy jump for her(her foot got stuck in the ice if you watch it in slowmo). and in the 2010 worlds Mao didn't put a salcow in her jump arsenal because she was already doing TWO 3A so no space for the salcow... the year after(2011) when she removed one 3A she suddenly got space for other tripple and the she put back the salcow and lutz.. and the toe has always been in mao's jump arsenal, and she is even doing it in combination 2A-3T in her free, and that combo she has been doing for two seasons now! and as a single 3T she has always had it in her free! so yes she had been doing and still does all kind of jumps, that was her whole intention with her new jump layout from the beginning!

You're digusted because you made a false statement (that Mao has wonderful and consistent triple salchows and toe-loops and gets positive GOEs on them) and I called you on it with proof :confused:

For the record: I believe that Mao does "have" both the triple toe-loop and the salchow, but I think they are her weakest triple jumps. Clearly her money jumps are the loop and flip, and I feel sad that the IJS rules and scrutiny have basically put an end to skaters using 3Lp as the back half of combinations because I think we've been screwed out of some truly great combos from both Mao and Miki. I actually think Mao's triple (f)lutz is also a money jump for her - despite the edge change she must have a great % consistency on it and the only times she's struggled was when she tried to fix the edge and sometimes ended up popping it.

Zemgirl
06-28-2012, 10:59 AM
I am tempted to make future voting decisions based on the number and behavior of each skaters' ubers. I think this should leave Slutskaya for last.

As it is, I voted for Arakawa, who was lovely but with blah programs and lots of inconsistency. I will certainly not vote Lulu out, her Last Emperor LP is one of my favorite programs ever and she gets extra points for coming from a country that didn't have that much of a skating tradition at the time.

UGG
06-28-2012, 12:55 PM
I don't know how anyone could vote for Irina over Mao. Mao is next for me. She has two world championship titles (same as Irina), olympic silver (same as Irina) and a world silver while Irina has a 2nd Olympic medal (bronze) and (I think) 3 more world medals and between 2000-2006 (except for the years she had heart illness) would always finish on the podium. And her 2005 long program was a tear jerker for sure and I was never even a fan!

Mao is just all over the map and yeah her triple axle was neat-o but she never had any life in her eyes when she skated and always looked bored IMO. Irina was much more exciting to watch.

I do agree with others that she was really screwed due to the age rule because I do think her peak was 2006 and really could have won the Olympics had she been able to go.Unfortunately what we think "could have happened" does not count for anything because well...it didn't happen.

miki88
06-28-2012, 01:28 PM
Mao is just all over the map and yeah her triple axle was neat-o but she never had any life in her eyes when she skated and always looked bored IMO. Irina was much more exciting to watch.


The only thing I found exciting about Irina was her speed, but she didn't really move effortlessly over the ice as the other skaters on the list did. Irina has a better competitive record than Mao but Mao was a more elegant and polished skater imo.

kwanette
06-28-2012, 01:34 PM
I am tempted to make future voting decisions based on the number and behavior of each skaters' ubers. I think this should leave Slutskaya for last.


A good criterion. Had we used it from the beginning, Sarah Hughes would still be in..:P

UGG
06-28-2012, 04:06 PM
The only thing I found exciting about Irina was her speed, but she didn't really move effortlessly over the ice as the other skaters on the list did. Irina has a better competitive record than Mao but Mao was a more elegant and polished skater imo.

i agree what that. She was a very clunky skater. but for me anyway, she was more fun to watch than Mao. Mao has like no on ice personality IMO. very elegant yes but seemed to be all business.

judgejudy27
06-28-2012, 04:11 PM
Mao was an elegant skater and lovely to watch at times, and did some very difficult jumps. She had all the pieces, but as her career went on they didnt come together as well as they could, and her consistency was a big problem. IMO she will go down as an underachiever. She had the potential to be the best skater ever perhaps.

Triple Butz
06-28-2012, 04:30 PM
I don't feel Irina's artistry is much better than Ando.

For me, while I agree Irina was awkward and unfinished, she did at least bring speed and energy to some of her programs. I thought her Culture sp from 2000/2001 was PERFECT for her. The exotic "circusy" music worked with her body movements. When she basically did the same elements to the muzak version of a Schubert piece the next season it didn't work it all IMO (despite the 6.0 she was gifted at worlds that year). With Miki, even though she was more controlled, I just never felt anything from her.

kwanatic
06-28-2012, 05:52 PM
The only thing I found exciting about Irina was her speed, but she didn't really move effortlessly over the ice as the other skaters on the list did. Irina has a better competitive record than Mao but Mao was a more elegant and polished skater imo.

I agree. I suppose I should save this argument for later, but I do agree with you. In terms of aesthetics, Irina is at the bottom of the list of remaining skaters. Her lines were ugly, her posture was bad, her extension and stretch were terrible, her programs were not my cuppa...all in all, just not the kind of skating I like. Her technical ability was great but IMO her jumps were kinda ugly. Irina got good speed and good height on her jumps but she telegraphed the hell outta her take offs and her landings left a lot to be desired in terms of riding edge and checked landing position.

When Mao was younger she was incredible. A ton of speed going into and coming out of her jumps, pretty air position, nice check on the landing...she was incredible. That's not the case anymore in terms of her jumps which don't carry as much speed and definitely lack the fast riding edge she used to have. Aesthetically, however, she is one of the most exquisite skaters I've ever seen in terms of her posture, line, extension, flow across the ice and gracefulness. She just floats...it's a quality I've never seen before and it's beautiful.

I've already said Irina comes in 2nd on this poll for me behind Michelle. Despite how unappealing her skating is to me, in terms of career accomplishments, longevity and competitiveness, she gets high marks. I adore Mao but her competitive record (thus far) can't compare. Ability is great but what you're able to accomplish with it is what matters. I think if Mao were not struggling the way she has been for the past two season, there would be a much stronger case for her. I think it's undeniable that Mao is a special kind of skater...but I do think given her abilities she's a bit of an underachiever as of right now.

judgejudy27
06-28-2012, 05:55 PM
Mao's career began going downhill when she went to Tarasova who isnt the coach or choreographer she used to be. She has never fully gotten on track since then, other than maybe for a blip winter of 2010.

kwanatic
06-28-2012, 06:00 PM
Mao's career began going downhill when she went to Tarasova who isnt the coach or choreographer she used to be. She has never fully gotten on track since then, other than maybe for a blip winter of 2010.

Tarasova ran her into the ground IMO. Prior to going to her, Mao was a different skater. I think the tunnel-vision focus on the 3A is what destroyed her. The rest of her beautiful skating fell away and her programs became a showcase for that one jump. They stopped trying to fix the lutz for two whole seasons; imagine how much farther along she would be with the correct technique if they hadn't pulled that jump from her programs...

TAT did wonderful exhibition programs for Mao but aside from that, I think going to her as a full-time coach was a terrible mistake that she's still paying for today.

judgejudy27
06-28-2012, 06:01 PM
Tarasova ran her into the ground IMO. Prior to going to her, Mao was a different skater. I think the tunnel-vision focus on the 3A is what destroyed her. The rest of her beautiful skating fell away and her programs became a showcase for that one jump. They stopped trying to fix the lutz for two whole seasons; imagine how much farther along she would be with the correct technique if they hadn't pulled that jump from her programs...

TAT did wonderful exhibition programs for Mao but aside from that, I think going to her as a full-time coach was a terrible mistake that she's still paying for today.

ITA on all. She has lost alot of her special qualities as an artist, her programs were nowhere near her artistic potential, and she began losing many of her other triples which were mostly solid and very strong pre Tarasova, which made the triple axel not just a groundbreaker but a neccessity to even have enough difficulty left.

kwanatic
06-28-2012, 06:47 PM
ITA on all. She has lost alot of her special qualities as an artist, her programs were nowhere near her artistic potential, and she began losing many of her other triples which were mostly solid and very strong pre Tarasova, which made the triple axel not just a groundbreaker but a neccessity to even have enough difficulty left.

Lori has been able to reverse some of the damage in terms of bringing Mao back into her element artistically. Her Libestraum program is a borderline masterpiece IMO and her Jupiter program leaves me speechless.

Mao is slowly finding her way back...but she was a completely different and much less enjoyable skater under Tarasova...IMO anyway.:shuffle:

bartek
06-29-2012, 12:52 AM
The only thing I found exciting about Irina was her speed, but she didn't really move effortlessly over the ice as the other skaters on the list did. Irina has a better competitive record than Mao but Mao was a more elegant and polished skater imo.

Irina didn't move efortlessly on the ice? :lol: At times, she had almost the same outstanding speed as Kostner had with only difference that Irina fully controlled her moves and it actually was totally efortless. Just with two or three strokes she could gain enough speed to skate through the whole ice rink in her one foot footwork and didn't lose the speed at all at the end. Irina has one of the best skating skills ever in ladies' skating. One of the fastest skater ever (comparable with Caro and Fumie at their best) with deep edges and total control. Have you ever seen her fall while doing crossovers or on the approach to the jump? I remember the times when Caro had so much super speed that she couldn't perfectly control it and Irina always, even when younger and sloppy, controled her powerful skating.