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dawnie
06-27-2012, 10:04 PM
Didn't Trenary win figures at the World Championships she won? And either placed 1st or 2nd at them in 1989?

judgejudy27
06-27-2012, 10:08 PM
Didn't Trenary win figures at the World Championships she won? And either placed 1st or 2nd at them in 1989?

Yes but against weak figures fields. She wasnt even ever beating Manley and Witt in figures, let alone the great figures skaters like Thomas and Ivanova. Leistner who didnt place that well in figures in her own era was the winner of figures (over Trenary) at the 89 Worlds.

Plusdinfo
06-27-2012, 11:52 PM
I voted for Irina Slutskaya due to the fact that half of the scoring in skating is based on presentation. I think Slutskaya tended to have some of the worst "presentation" skills (especially musical interpretation) of any top 3-6 skater in memory. Thank you for the assessment quoted below and even more for the links. I greatly enjoyed the Keri Lotion exhibition and the Schindler's List performance, but the others weren't that great!! Memory makes me think that her 2005 Worlds LP was one of the only times I liked one of her competitive programs.


Unpopular opinion, but this is the point where I would kick out Slutskaya.

Slutskaya had about one season where she was skating at her full potential, which was the season of her comeback in late 99-2000. She improved every aspect of her skating and was at her absolute peak. Her 99 (http://youtu.be/5O3E36QynNo?t=2m48s) and 2000 sps (http://youtu.be/CUYPoEOSwWU?t=1m34s) are her best ever and I don't think I've ever seen her move with more power, freedom, elegance, and feeling as this section of this exhibition program from the 2000 season. (http://youtu.be/hINNgBAqIxQ?t=2m10s) or this Schindler's List exhibition exhibition (http://youtu.be/d3judUdDuE4?t=1m51s) from around the same time. That would have been a way better program for the Olympics than the heavy and ponderous Tosca program.

And of course, her best competitive skate was the 2000 GPF. Obviously the triple/triples are a huge part, but she's never skated a competitive program with that much lightness and ease ever again. Compare this (http://youtu.be/3oFFioGqfYI?t=3m39s)to her "Don Quixote" skates from the next season and their is no comparison.

Then, once she got back to the top, it was back to the old Slutskaya; stiff upper body, stiff arms, choreography disconnected from the music, stalked jumps, heavy landed lutz/flip jumps, unfinished spins, etc... Total regression.

Chen and Arakawa at least improved the quality of their skating, style, and programs throughout their career.

flipforsynchro
06-28-2012, 01:20 AM
Worlds 2012 (http://www.isuresults.com/results/wc2012/WC2012_Ladies_FS_Scores.pdf) the 3S was under-rotated and got negative GOE, no 3T attempted.

Worlds 2011 (http://www.isuresults.com/results/wc2011/wc2011_Ladies_FS_Scores.pdf) Popped the salchow to a 1S and had the 3T downgraded (<<).

Worlds 2010 (http://www.isuresults.com/results/wc2010/wc10_Ladies_FS_Scores.pdf) She landed the 3T with positive GOE but did not attempt a salchow.

2010 Olympics (http://www.isuresults.com/results/owg2010/owg10_Ladies_FS_Scores.pdf) popped the toe-loop to a 1T and did not attempt a salchow.

I don't think she included a salchow for at least a couple of seasons prior to the Olympics so i'm just not seeing salchow and toe-loop as being these wonderful jumps that Mao did/does.

At the Olympics, Mao tripped right before she was taking off for that 3T, so that's not exactly a great example to use.
http://youtu.be/5y5mcxHe9Qc?t=3m25s

gingercrush
06-28-2012, 03:53 AM
This is just another reason why she should be voted out.
All the ladies, even ones that got voted out, had no problem landing 3T and 3S except Miss Asada.

Yep but unlike any other lady here she could pull off a Triple Axel and in combination and with how bad her Triple Toe is according to you (certainly agree it isn't a strong jump for her). She was still able to get it ratified under the harsher code and in combination with a Triple Flip and could also do a Double Axel-Triple Toe.

And by your silly analogy Kim should be out of contention too because she barely ever pulled off a Triple Loop.

t.mann
06-28-2012, 05:42 AM
I am curious about how the result of of the ROUND 9(maybe Irina vs Mao match) will turn out.
While I think Mao is stronger than Irina, many other users seem to think otherwise.
Would Irina (who had a total of about 8 ratified 3-3s in her long career) be able to beat Mao with three 3As(at the Olympics)?

magnolia
06-28-2012, 06:01 AM
I don't think it's fair to compare jumps before and after CoP; before CoP, lip/flutz/pre-rotation/under-rotation were non-issues.

As for Mao not having a salchow and toe loop, that is ridiculous. She has always had those and the dubious one was the lutz, which she has only managed to get ratified a few times post-CoP.

The great thing about Mao is that she is continuing to improve herself:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBKXCZzB_S8

judgejudy27
06-28-2012, 06:23 AM
I am curious about how the result of of the ROUND 9(maybe Irina vs Mao match) will turn out.
While I think Mao is stronger than Irina, many other users seem to think otherwise.
Would Irina (who had a total of about 8 ratified 3-3s in her long career) be able to beat Mao with three 3As(at the Olympics)?

Irina got stronger as her career went on, while Mao burst on the scene and began going downhill after her first World title with some brief rises back up, then regressing again. So based on that I will vote Mao off before Irina in round 9.

Rochette nearly beat Mao in Vancouver, and both had mistakes. Irina certainly would have had the chance to do so, and wouldnt have had to skate perfectly either. A young Mao beat Irina, but Mao lost many times through her career to Miki Ando who Irina could beat in her sleep.

magnolia
06-28-2012, 06:32 AM
Irina got stronger as her career went on, while Mao burst on the scene and began going downhill after her first World title with some brief rises back up, then regressing again. So based on that I will vote Mao off before Irina in round 9.

Rochette nearly beat Mao in Vancouver, and both had mistakes. Irina certainly would have had the chance to do so, and wouldnt have had to skate perfectly either.

Mao beat Irina at Grand Prix in Olympic year.

Mao's career has not been at all smooth, but then, whose career has been? There is not one skater on the list who has done consistently well. Inconsistency is the norm, not the exception. (I guess if consistency is the criteria, I would say Michelle Kwan, but even she has her mental stumbles most unfortunately at Olympics.)

judgejudy27
06-28-2012, 06:54 AM
Mao beat Irina at Grand Prix in Olympic year.

Mao's career has not been at all smooth, but then, whose career has been? There is not one skater on the list who has done consistently well. Inconsistency is the norm, not the exception. (I guess if consistency is the criteria, I would say Michelle Kwan, but even she has her mental stumbles most unfortunately at Olympics.)

True, I just think Irina's amazing longevity as a top skater gives her the edge on Mao who is already fizzling out past her teenage years. Especialy since Mao was never able to truly be a dominant skater like Kim was for 2 seasons to compensate. In 2005-2006 was she was denied the chance by the age rule, in 2006-2007 she was challenged and beaten more than once by both Kim and Ando, in 2007-2008 was challenged by Kim and barely won Worlds over Kostner and Kim.

magnolia
06-28-2012, 07:16 AM
True, I just think Irina's amazing longevity as a top skater gives her the edge on Mao who is already fizzling out past her teenage years. Especialy since Mao was never able to truly be a dominant skater like Kim was for 2 seasons to compensate. In 2005-2006 was she was denied the chance by the age rule, in 2006-2007 she was challenged and beaten more than once by both Kim and Ando, in 2007-2008 was challenged by Kim and barely won Worlds over Kostner and Kim.

All the skaters you mention above have been beaten by the others, Yuna by Mao, Miki and Caro (I think), Miki by Mao, Yuna and Caro, and Caro by Mao, Miki and Yuna. So that in itself doesn't mean anything.

I have not once voted (maybe I will next time), but I think that I would take into consideration things like:

1. Longevity of career
This should favor Irina, Michelle Kwan, Mao

2. Whether or not all the jumps were there with no wrong edge or rotation issues
This criteria should actually have favored Miki, if anything. Miki should really get more recognition for being the jumper that she is.

3. Artistry
This in my eyes should favor Mao absolutely and least favorably, Irina. I have never found her particularly enjoyable as a performer.

4. Ability to do big tricks such as 3-3 and triple-axels
This should favor Yuna as well as Mao.

5. Off-ice behavior
I think Michelle Kwan has been quite impeccable in that regard. I, being a fan of Mao, find her off-ice behavior inspiring.

RumbleFish
06-28-2012, 07:50 AM
Yep but unlike any other lady here she could pull off a Triple Axel and in combination and with how bad her Triple Toe is according to you (certainly agree it isn't a strong jump for her). She was still able to get it ratified under the harsher code and in combination with a Triple Flip and could also do a Double Axel-Triple Toe.

I must say I was surprised to see how great Miss Asada's big jumps are upon further research. Check out the link below. :P

Mao Asada Triple Axel - Double Toe Loop Combination (http://www.iceskatingintnl.com/archive/results_2010OWG/Asada%20Triple%20Axel.htm)


And by your silly analogy Kim should be out of contention too because she barely ever pulled off a Triple Loop.

Please, save your uber war stuff until you get there. All I'm saying here is Lu Chen happens to be much stronger champion than Miss Asada. Unlike you know who, she performed memorable programs and acheived most of her results without receiving gifts.

RumbleFish
06-28-2012, 07:59 AM
I don't think it's fair to compare jumps before and after CoP; before CoP, lip/flutz/pre-rotation/under-rotation were non-issues.

This isn't true. There were mandatory deductions put in place for cheated jumps during 6.0 era.


As for Mao not having a salchow and toe loop, that is ridiculous. She has always had those and the dubious one was the lutz, which she has only managed to get ratified a few times post-CoP.

:lol: I do remeber her saying around 06/07 season that the reason she never does 3S is because points were too low.

judgejudy27
06-28-2012, 08:56 AM
All the skaters you mention above have been beaten by the others, Yuna by Mao, Miki and Caro (I think), Miki by Mao, Yuna and Caro, and Caro by Mao, Miki and Yuna. So that in itself doesn't mean anything.

The only one to beat Yu Na with some regularity is Mao. Miki beat her only twice ever, four years apart. Kostner beat her only once ever. Mao has lost to all those other many times over.

Just like the only ones to beat Kwan with any regularity ever are Slutskaya and Lipinski. Nobody else. She was that dominant and unbeatable, but of course for even a much longer time than Yu Na.

gingercrush
06-28-2012, 09:44 AM
I must say I was surprised to see how great Miss Asada's big jumps are upon further research. Check out the link below. :P

Mao Asada Triple Axel - Double Toe Loop Combination (http://www.iceskatingintnl.com/archive/results_2010OWG/Asada%20Triple%20Axel.htm)



Are you purposely thick? No judging is done at a later date with weird picture to picture comparisons by an opinionated turd. That doesn't mean jack. Nor can those photos show anything unless every single jump that was ratified also get their own photo comparisons.


Please, save your uber war stuff until you get there. All I'm saying here is Lu Chen happens to be much stronger champion than Miss Asada. Unlike you know who, she performed memorable programs and acheived most of her results without receiving gifts.

You are already ubering idiot. Oh Mao should be out because she doesn't do Triple Toe and Triple Salchow and completely dismiss the few times Kim ever did a Triple Loop. I don't possibly see how Lu Chen is a stronger champion than Mao Asada. But you are entitled to your opinion. Also I can recall several memorable programs from Mao.