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dawnie
06-26-2012, 10:39 PM
i would recommend you to watch Mao's performance from when she became a senior competitor tell now, cause then you would see that the toe and salcow have been very reliable jumps, in far most of her performances, and effortlesly done on top of it!

:lol:
Are you being sarcastic or do you really believe the toe and especially the salchow are very reliable jumps for her? Everyone knows the flip and loop have been her only reliable jumps for years.

Amy03
06-26-2012, 10:45 PM
well don't know which competition you have watched, but the once i have rewatched at least a hundred times they certainly looked beautifully attempted and landed! and her getting credit for it and positive goe also shows that the technical judge thinks and sees the same as i do!

bartek
06-26-2012, 11:01 PM
Well there is more to consider than the 3 biggest events. Of course to get a total picture one has to go a bit deeper into the moderate events and downwards. However what to do with Four Continents is complicated since there is also Europeans, and there are likely varying opinions how they compared. Plus Four Continents is a relatively new event and wasnt prestigious to the skaters until recently. None European skaters like Michelle Kwan, Tara Lipinski, and Lu Chen never even competed at Four Continents due to when they skated so would be disadvantaged, which isnt really true of anyone on this particular list for the GP final for instance.

I probably had the Olympic point totals a bit high, but it is definitely worth more than a Worlds without question.

Why didn't you use both Europeans and 4CC? To make sure Kwan would beat Slutskaya? If you gave points to Irina for her seven european golds she would win.

judgejudy27
06-26-2012, 11:23 PM
Why didn't you use both Europeans and 4CC? To make sure Kwan would beat Slutskaya? If you gave points to Irina for her seven european golds she would win.

I am a much bigger fan of Slutskaya than Kwan. I just posted the biggest 3 events as a starting point, I havent figured out yet how I would point the other events. Anyway it is my own opinion, it would be fun if others made their own point system.

Four Continents in the Kwan era is complex though since almost none of the top skaters ever competed there, as the fact Kwan active from 1999-2005 never competing there reflects.

bartek
06-26-2012, 11:30 PM
I am a much bigger fan of Slutskaya than Kwan. I just posted the biggest 3 events as a starting point, I havent figured out yet how I would point the other events. Anyway it is my own opinion, it would be fun if others made their own point system.

Four Continents in the Kwan era is complex though since almost none of the top skaters ever competed there, as the fact Kwan active from 1999-2005 never competing there reflects.

Ok, I see but I would say that Europeans are much more prestigious and important for skaters than GPF. Of course 4CC haven't always been as important as they are now but Europeans have very long tradition and have always been considered as the third most important event after Olympics and Worlds. I noticed that a lot of european male skaters care for Europeans a lot and tell about hat in their interviews, e.g. Plushenko, Joubert, Amodio and Verner.

judgejudy27
06-26-2012, 11:40 PM
I agree about the importance of Europeans, I am just not sure how to put into proper perspective since non Europeans dont get to compete there. I will probably redo my totals giving the same value to Europeans and Four Continents though, and giving some value to the grand prix events and Goodwill Games. It seems Slutskaya would come out ahead in that case. For the skaters who chose not to compete at Four Continents, I guess it was their choice.

FunnyBut
06-27-2012, 12:05 AM
To complement the medal cont I did for the men, here's the career ranking for ladies

<rankings post>

.

I think your numbers are quite fair, an Olympics should be weighted more heavily Worlds, everyone trains in a 4 year cycle, trying to peak at the Olympics.

The only skaters that sort of get 'shorted' are the ones who win both Olympics Worlds early in life, specifcally Tara and Yuna. Life changes once the greatest goals are met, who knows what other medals they might have earned had they still been hungry and singularily focused toward skating competition.

FunnyBut
06-27-2012, 12:17 AM
Why didn't you use both Europeans and 4CC? To make sure Kwan would beat Slutskaya? If you gave points to Irina for her seven european golds she would win.

:lol: What kind of competition did Irina have at Euros? Really only Maria B., and only for about three seasons. Perhaps we should count Senior Bs too, and then Carolina would have everyone else beat. A competition is only as good as its competitors. Kwan had it far tougher at her own Nationals, she faced Sasha, Sara, Tara, Nicole B, Kimmie, all at one time legitamate contenders for a World or Olympic gold medal. I'd say Miki and Mao had it tougher at Japanese Nats than Irina at most Europeans. Yeah, for dance, pairs and men Euros was a strong competition, for Ladies, not nearly so much.

bartek
06-27-2012, 12:27 AM
:lol: What kind of competition did Irina have at Euros? Really only Maria B., and only for about three seasons. Perhaps we should count Senior Bs too, and then Carolina would have everyone else beat. A competition is only as good as its competitors. Kwan had it far tougher at her own Nationals, she faced Sasha, Sara, Tara, Nicole B, Kimmie, all at one time legitamate contenders for a World or Olympic gold medal. I'd say Miki and Mao had it tougher at Japanese Nats than Irina at most Europeans. Yeah, for dance, pairs and men Euros was a strong competition, for Ladies, not nearly so much.

I agree that it's more diffciult to win a medal at Japan Nationals than gold at Europeans but still Irina's longevity and winning those gold medals seven times is very impressive and admirable. I wouldn't say it was easier for Irina to win Europeans than for Michelle to win US Nats in 00s. After 2002 Olympics the only competition for Michelle was Sasha and as much as I adore her she couldn't put it together at Nationals and made it easier for Michelle to win.

skateboy
06-27-2012, 01:19 AM
Voted for Lulu, but feel it's close between her and Shiz.

DaiKozOda
06-27-2012, 01:35 AM
[QUOTE=FunnyBut;3604767]:lol: What kind of competition did Irina have at Euros? Really only Maria B., and only for about three seasons. QUOTE]

Just to play the devils advocate.
Irina won her first euro title against Surya Bonaly. Bonaly was a world silver medalist.
Irina competed against Butyrskaya who was a euro and world champion.
Irina medalled ahead of Szewczenko who was a world bronze medalist.
Irina competed against Sokolova who despite not being a red hot skater still was able to pull a silver medal at the world championships.

So I wouldn't discredit Irina's achievements at the european championships. :slinkaway

Triple Butz
06-27-2012, 01:43 AM
Lu Chen has a higher medal count and through most of her career was a stronger competitor than Arakawa IMO. I voted for Shizzle.

Cheylana
06-27-2012, 01:58 AM
I also voted for Shizuka (same as last round).

casken
06-27-2012, 02:08 AM
Unpopular opinion, but this is the point where I would kick out Slutskaya.

Slutskaya had about one season where she was skating at her full potential, which was the season of her comeback in late 99-2000. She improved every aspect of her skating and was at her absolute peak. Her 99 (http://youtu.be/5O3E36QynNo?t=2m48s) and 2000 sps (http://youtu.be/CUYPoEOSwWU?t=1m34s) are her best ever and I don't think I've ever seen her move with more power, freedom, elegance, and feeling as this section of this exhibition program from the 2000 season. (http://youtu.be/hINNgBAqIxQ?t=2m10s) or this Schindler's List exhibition exhibition (http://youtu.be/d3judUdDuE4?t=1m51s) from around the same time. That would have been a way better program for the Olympics than the heavy and ponderous Tosca program.

And of course, her best competitive skate was the 2000 GPF. Obviously the triple/triples are a huge part, but she's never skated a competitive program with that much lightness and ease ever again. Compare this (http://youtu.be/3oFFioGqfYI?t=3m39s)to her "Don Quixote" skates from the next season and their is no comparison.

Then, once she got back to the top, it was back to the old Slutskaya; stiff upper body, stiff arms, choreography disconnected from the music, stalked jumps, heavy landed lutz/flip jumps, unfinished spins, etc... Total regression.

Chen and Arakawa at least improved the quality of their skating, style, and programs throughout their career.

bartek
06-27-2012, 02:41 AM
Unpopular opinion, but this is the point where I would kick out Slutskaya.

Slutskaya had about one season where she was skating at her full potential, which was the season of her comeback in late 99-2000. She improved every aspect of her skating and was at her absolute peak. Her 99 (http://youtu.be/5O3E36QynNo?t=2m48s) and 2000 sps (http://youtu.be/CUYPoEOSwWU?t=1m34s) are her best ever and I don't think I've ever seen her move with more power, freedom, elegance, and feeling as this section of this exhibition program from the 2000 season. (http://youtu.be/hINNgBAqIxQ?t=2m10s) or this Schindler's List exhibition exhibition (http://youtu.be/d3judUdDuE4?t=1m51s) from around the same time. That would have been a way better program for the Olympics than the heavy and ponderous Tosca program.

And of course, her best competitive skate was the 2000 GPF. Obviously the triple/triples are a huge part, but she's never skated a competitive program with that much lightness and ease ever again. Compare this (http://youtu.be/3oFFioGqfYI?t=3m39s)to her "Don Quixote" skates from the next season and their is no comparison.

Then, once she got back to the top, it was back to the old Slutskaya; stiff upper body, stiff arms, choreography disconnected from the music, stalked jumps, heavy landed lutz/flip jumps, unfinished spins, etc... Total regression.

Chen and Arakawa at least improved the quality of their skating, style, and programs throughout their career.

In my opinion Slutskaya's peak was when she came back after her heart illness.

Heavy landed lutz/flip? Have you ever seen her lutz or flip? They are gorgeous! She got about twice the height Michelle had. Unfinished spins? So how would you describe Michelle's spins? Feeble imitation of spins?

www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUGoNw8lXy8&t=1m20s
Is this triple flip heavy landed? Huge height and good flow out of the jump. I see nothing bad in this jump.

She also didn't have any problematic jump like most of current skaters have, e.g. loop for Yu-Na. She had a complete set of all triples (without triple axel of course) and always put them all in her programs. Not to mention her difficult entrance to triple loop which she popularised and triple-triples with loop at the end.

Apart from being one of the best jumpers in history, Slutskaya probably ranks in the top ten of the best spinners ever too. Technically she was a whole package. Huge jumps, great spins, speed, deep edges in spirals (of course Dick and Peggy never even mentioned her edges and speed in spirals, only focusing on the extention)...

Even when CoP came into the scene she easily adjusted and Dick Button once noticed that when most of the skaters lost speed and centering when they got into difficult variations, Slutskaya not only didn't lose speed but actually gained it and stayed in one spot on the ice. Her biellman and donut were first rate. She didn't have to drop her leg unaesthetically like most of skaters do. Her camel was also great and she got big height on her flying spins. Everything about her spins was superior to Kwan apart from sit spin. Her layback position was also very good with nice arch in the back and good leg position. Michelle had terrible back position and low free leg.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUGoNw8lXy8&t=3m53s an example of her great signature double biellman spin