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briancoogaert
06-26-2012, 06:41 PM
I dont think she was undermarked in the SP at all at the 93 Worlds. Her program was poorly choreographed with poor music cuts, her combo was tight, and her overall performance was clearly inferior to the top 4. Chouinard who finshed 4th was undermarked and should have been 2nd or 3rd in the short, while Bonaly who was 3rd was also clearly better.

Still there is a case for her winning the 93 Worlds as 1st in the LP, Bonaly 2nd in the LP, and Bauil 3rd in the LP, would have still given her the title, but that isnt a popular viewpoint as I began a poll on those Worlds about a year ago and Bonaly and Baiul both had far more votes than she did. There was also a poll on who deserved to win the 96 Worlds and while it was a virtual tie Chen lost that one too. There doesnt seem to be a consensus she was robbed of any major title.
I don't know if Lu Chen was robbed, but IMO, Oksana Baiul didn't deserve any of her titles ! :saint:

judgejudy27
06-26-2012, 06:43 PM
I don't know if Lu Chen was robbed, but IMO, Oksana Baiul didn't deserve any of her titles ! :saint:

I wish I could find the poll of the 93 Worlds but I am not a payed member. I dont remember if Baiul or Bonaly won that poll. For me Baiul did not deserve any of her major titles though. Bonaly deserved the 93 Worlds and Kerrigan the 94 Olympics.

I dont think Chen deserved either the 93 Worlds or 94 Olympics though, and the 96 Worlds is the only one she didnt win she might have deserved, and even that I am not sure on. I just dont agree with the idea she was robbed of a bunch of major titles by a weak federation, etc...and while everyone is entitled their opinion, the polls on this forum indicated very few believed she deserved either the 93 Worlds or 94 Olympics as well. Her biggest problem is her technical peak was 91-94 and her artistic peak was 95-98. 96 Worlds was the time she combined both best.

Mafke
06-26-2012, 07:14 PM
I can't stand the thought of voting for either Chen or Shizukawa so I'm voting for Asada, whose skating I have just never gotten (at any level).

Amy03
06-26-2012, 08:30 PM
That's the problem with Mao. And that's why I don't consider her as one of very best. Her jumping technique is questionnable, IMO, and her landings are not really on a clean edge. :cold:

her landings are on a clean edge the only jump there sometimes is an edge problem is the lutz everything else (axel,loop,flip,salcow,toe) is cristal clean, which is why Mao is mostly known as a very strong technical skater... through i find her artistically even more empressive, i think most of her performances are really one of the most touching and pure to watch, they really reach out to the soul, which i find is a very rare quality and a rare ability to have... only a person without eyes wouldn't be able to see the classical elegant skater Mao is!

VALuvsMKwan
06-26-2012, 09:13 PM
I can't stand the thought of voting for either Chen or Shizukawa so I'm voting for Asada, whose skating I have just never gotten (at any level).

Same here. Much as I am not a fan of Slutskaya's presentation style of skating or her Biellmanning almost every spin or spiral I remember her doing, she was a stronger, more powerful skater than Asada, whose skating I just could not connect with. I think she is a very admirable person, but her skating leaves me colder than any of the remaining "contestants". ETA - so Amy3, I guess I just don't have eyes - thanks so much. :rolleyes:

I might have a different opinion next round, however.

dawnie
06-26-2012, 09:22 PM
I can't stand the thought of voting for either Chen or Shizukawa so I'm voting for Asada, whose skating I have just never gotten (at any level).

I'm on the same page. Yes, Shizuka only won with Turandot, but I loved her programs at Worlds and Olympics. Along with Lu Chen's Rach and Butterfly Lovers, I enjoy re-watching those performances on YouTube. I can't say the same thing about Mao. I don't think I've watched any of her performances since the actual competition.

I haven't voted yet, but it looks like Shiz is out and Lu Chen is right behind her. For reasons already stated by other people, I don't believe Lulu deserves to be voted off the island yet. Mao should get a closer look IMO.

duane
06-26-2012, 09:24 PM
...and while everyone is entitled their opinion, the polls on this forum indicated very few believed she deserved either the 93 Worlds or 94 Olympics as well.
Well, there you have it...solid proof.

judgejudy27
06-26-2012, 09:27 PM
Well, there you have it...solid proof.

OK I dont remember any experts, writers, commentators, coaches, anyone arguing Chen deserving to win either the 93 Worlds or 94 Olympics, and I say that as someone that likes Chen alot more than any of Bonaly, Kerrigan, or Baiul, and who thinks her free skates at both events were excellent. She is also one of the most popular skaters on this forum so if even on a poll she didnt get many votes for those two events, it is telling. The only event she didnt win I remember being debated by anyone was the 96 Worlds. Then her win at the 95 Worlds was well deserved, but very close amongst the top 4, and she needed Bobek to bomb to have a shot of winning.

She and Shizuka were both excellent but neither even had potential to ever be a dominant skater. Even Butyrskaya who was the third one voted out had more potential for that as she could have won back to back Worlds and only needed to skate a cleanish free skate to do it, something Chen couldnt do delivering the performance of her life.

dawnie
06-26-2012, 09:31 PM
her landings are on a clean edge the only jump there sometimes is an edge problem is the lutz everything else (axel,loop,flip,salcow,toe) is cristal clean, which is why Mao is mostly known as a very strong technical skater... through i find her artistically even more empressive, i think most of her performances are really one of the most touching and pure to watch, they really reach out to the soul, which i find is a very rare quality and a rare ability to have... only a person without eyes wouldn't be able to see the classical elegant skater Mao is!

Really? I get that you're a huge Mao fan but let's get real. Sometimes an edge problem with the lutz? Her salchow and toe crystal clean?

umronnie
06-26-2012, 09:37 PM
To complement the medal cont I did for the men, here's the career ranking for ladies (Not going to do pairs or dance. Pairs seem obvious to me and I couldn't care less about dance).

By OG/WC medals
Kwan 11 (5)
Slutskaya 8 (2)
Kim 6 (2)
Chen 6(1)
Asada 4 (2)
Kostner 4 (1)
Ando 3 (2)
Butyrskaya 3 (1)
Arakawa, Lipinski 2 (2)
Hughes 1 (1)
Meissner 1 (1)

By total medal count
Slutskaya 49 (26)
Kwan 32 (18)
Butyrskaya 27 (15)
Kostner 25 (10)
Asada 24 (13)
Kim 19 (13)
Ando 18 (8)
Chen 14 (4)
Arakawa 14 (3)
Hughes 11 (2)
Lipinski 9 (4)
Meissner 6 (3)

By medals per year
Lipinski 4.5 (2.0)
Slutskaya 4.5 (2.4)
Kim 3.8 (2.6)
Asada 3.5 (1.9)
Butyrskaya 2.7 (1.5) by a hair over Kwan
Kwan 2.7 (1.5)
Kostner 2.5 (1.0)
Ando 2.3 (1.0)
Hughes 2.2 (0.4)
Meissner 2.0 (1.0)
Chen 1.8 (0.5)
Arakawa 1.8 (0.4)

Not doing 4CCs hurt the American ladies (and Chen - she never even had the chance) vs the European on total medal count and medals per year.

Amy03
06-26-2012, 09:56 PM
Really? I get that you're a huge Mao fan but let's get real. Sometimes an edge problem with the lutz? Her salchow and toe crystal clean?


i would recommend you to watch Mao's performance from when she became a senior competitor tell now, cause then you would see that the toe and salcow have been very reliable jumps, in far most of her performances, and effortlesly done on top of it!

briancoogaert
06-26-2012, 09:58 PM
her landings are on a clean edge the only jump there sometimes is an edge problem is the lutz everything else (axel,loop,flip,salcow,toe) is cristal clean, which is why Mao is mostly known as a very strong technical skater... through i find her artistically even more empressive, i think most of her performances are really one of the most touching and pure to watch, they really reach out to the soul, which i find is a very rare quality and a rare ability to have... only a person without eyes wouldn't be able to see the classical elegant skater Mao is!
Her jumping technique is not pure. She rotates fastly, and her air position is very good.
I've just watched a video with her triple/triple combos, and that's right that most of the time, her landing edge is good (the Flip).
http://youtu.be/WO0W5A5IKug?t=2m45s
Here, her landing is not very good. Most of the time, it's the case on the Axel and the Loop. But of course, it's on a very difficult combo. ;)

judgejudy27
06-26-2012, 10:06 PM
Just looking at the 3 biggest events if you gave points something like this:

Olympic Gold- 10
Olympic Silver- 6
Olympic bronze- 3

World Gold- 5
World Silver- 3
World Bronze- 1

Grand Prix final Gold- 3
Grand Prix final silver- 2
Grand Prix final bronze- 1

You would end up with for the 12 women who started this poll:

Kwan- 55
Slutskaya- 49
Kim- 34
Asada- 29
Lipinski- 21
Arakawa- 18
Chen- 16
Kostner- 16
Ando- 13
Hughes- 13
Butyrskaya- 11
Meissner- 5

Amy03
06-26-2012, 10:29 PM
Just looking at the 3 biggest events if you gave points something like this:

Olympic Gold- 10
Olympic Silver- 6
Olympic bronze- 3

World Gold- 5
World Silver- 3
World Bronze- 1

Grand Prix final Gold- 3
Grand Prix final silver- 2
Grand Prix final bronze- 1

You would end up with for the 12 women who started this poll:

Kwan- 55
Slutskaya- 49
Kim- 34
Asada- 29
Lipinski- 21
Arakawa- 18
Chen- 16
Kostner- 16
Ando- 13
Hughes- 13
Butyrskaya- 11
Meissner- 5


well this is a good try but i really think it's wrong to make the difference between a world gold and a olympic gold, cause the ISU has given them equel points, (it's like saying the title miss universe is better then miss world lol)
and in your calculation you forgot to add four continents.

judgejudy27
06-26-2012, 10:34 PM
well this is a good try but i really think it's wrong to make the difference between a world gold and a olympic gold, cause the ISU has given them equel points, (it's like saying the title miss universe is better then miss world lol)
and in your calculation you forgot to add four continents.

Well there is more to consider than the 3 biggest events. Of course to get a total picture one has to go a bit deeper into the moderate events and downwards. However what to do with Four Continents is complicated since there is also Europeans, and there are likely varying opinions how they compared. Plus Four Continents is a relatively new event and wasnt prestigious to the skaters until recently. None European skaters like Michelle Kwan, Tara Lipinski, and Lu Chen never even competed at Four Continents due to when they skated so would be disadvantaged, which isnt really true of anyone on this particular list for the GP final for instance.

I probably had the Olympic point totals a bit high, but it is definitely worth more than a Worlds without question.