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kwanfan1818
06-22-2012, 09:45 PM
You know, I'm not down with people ragging on Jamie for this. It screams of misogeny to blame her. As far as I can tell, she was broken up with David and had made no vows to Christine. Isn't Craig the one who did the douchy thing by going against his vows to his wife? Place the blame where it's squarely deserved.
I agree, and the other way it's misogynistic is that she is the seducing witch from which men must be protected, because they have no self-control on their own, and women should be the guardians.

mtnskater
06-22-2012, 09:50 PM
People do what they do. They live their lives doing the best they can. Life's messy. None of us are perfect. Sometimes we can get better at it with practice. Sometimes not. Shrug.

ETA: I hope Jamie and Craig are very happy together. I know it took me two tries to get it right, and my husband as well. And I hope all the children involved get all the love and attention they need and deserve inspite of, and/or because of, the actions of all their various parents.

Agree 100% Alilou. Well said.

Andora
06-22-2012, 09:51 PM
Yet we do these things anyways, proving that, at that particular moment, it was the best we could do. With some time and reflection, we might have done differently, but that's for a paralel universe to decide.


:wall:

No, bad decisions are NOT the best you could do at that particular moment. They remain a choice you made that 9 times out of 10, you knew was not the best course of action, especially when others are involved. But more selfish motives over-rule that. To call it "the best you could do at the time" is a huge pile of self-serving, guilt-avoiding b.s.



You know, I'm not down with people ragging on Jamie for this. It screams of misogeny to blame her. As far as I can tell, she was broken up with David and had made no vows to Christine. Isn't Craig the one who did the douchy thing by going against his vows to his wife? Place the blame where it's squarely deserved.

This I can agree with. In terms of "the other woman", I tend to feel pretty awful for her in most cases as well. How often does a married man actually leave his wife for his mistress? They also get the short straw, only they know it. It's very sad.

Jamie got lucky, really. In fact, she got lucky twice. :shuffle:

Blair
06-22-2012, 09:54 PM
Sorry, I'm not following you at all. Take another example -- those kids that bullied the bus monitor. They had a choice -- bully her or not bully her. They chose to bully her. Does that mean that at that moment, bullying her was the best they could do?

Well, i don't know the kids, nor have i seen the video, but I imagine that their upbringings and personal experiences will colour how they treat others in the future, so, maybe they had shit lives. I don't know.

euterpe
06-22-2012, 09:59 PM
Wasn't David Pelletier married when Jamie hooked up with him?

In the end Jamie, David and Craig all got what they deserved: marriage to serial cheaters. None had any concern for the ex-spouses and/or children left in their wake.


I wouldn't be surprised if Jamie's time with Craig is as brief as her first marriage was. Let's hope they don't reproduce and compound the damage.

Blair
06-22-2012, 10:04 PM
:wall:

No, bad decisions are NOT the best you could do at that particular moment. They remain a choice you made that 9 times out of 10, you knew was not the best course of action, especially when others are involved. But more selfish motives over-rule that. To call it "the best you could do at the time" is a huge pile of self-serving, guilt-avoiding b.s.

I see what you're saying, but I mean this in a philisophical sense...not in a self-serving, egocentric, paris hilton-y sense.

Despite what we might think of Paris Hilton (or Craig Simpson for that matter), at any given moment, she does the best she was ever going to do at that particular moment, based on her experiences and those particular circumstances leading up to that moment. Doesn't mean she isn't tacitly a self-serving narcissist bitch too. I just mean that once something has happened, it's over, and wishing things had been done differently doesn't make it so and remains the best that that person could do at that moment in time.

Am I too out there?

Andora
06-22-2012, 10:08 PM
I see what you're saying, but I mean this in a philisophical sense...not in a self-serving, egocentric, paris hilton-y sense.

Despite what we might think of Paris Hilton (or Craig Simpson for that matter), at any given moment, she does the best she was ever going to do at that particular moment, based on her experiences and those particular circumstances leading up to that moment. Doesn't mean she isn't tacitly a self-serving narcissist bitch too. I just mean that once something has happened, it's over, and wishing things had been done differently doesn't make it so and remains the best that that person could do at that moment in time.

Am I too out there?

You had me until you said it was the best they could do. Sure, someone raised like Paris is going to act accordingly. Maybe that's the case with all involved here. But I refuse to accept "that's the best I can do/people are flawed" because it indicates a sense of avoiding responsibility for damage caused to others, and maybe to one's own future. When things all fall apart, it's easy to lay that at someone else's feet, and it's easier when you blame your own earlier bad judgement on factors beyond your control.

Wyliefan
06-22-2012, 10:10 PM
As has been observed by far greater minds than mine, "is" doesn't equal "ought (http://ethicalrealism.wordpress.com/2011/07/19/the-isought-gap-how-do-we-get-ought-from-is/)." Because a particular action is the one you chose, that doesn't mean it's the one you ought to have chosen.

alilou
06-22-2012, 10:13 PM
I see what you're saying, but I mean this in a philisophical sense...not in a self-serving, egocentric, paris hilton-y sense.

Despite what we might think of Paris Hilton (or Craig Simpson for that matter), at any given moment, she does the best she was ever going to do at that particular moment, based on her experiences and those particular circumstances leading up to that moment. Doesn't mean she isn't tacitly a self-serving narcissist bitch too. I just mean that once something has happened, it's over, and wishing things had been done differently doesn't make it so and remains the best that that person could do at that moment in time.

Am I too out there?
Thank you. Not too out there at all.

Blair
06-22-2012, 10:29 PM
As has been observed by far greater minds than mine, "is" doesn't equal "ought (http://ethicalrealism.wordpress.com/2011/07/19/the-isought-gap-how-do-we-get-ought-from-is/)." Because a particular action is the one you chose, that doesn't mean it's the one you ought to have chosen.

I'm sorry, but that article is crap. It says a lot of social-normative things, but doesn't actually prove prove what "ought to" is outside of a strict functionalist view of the world. The example of arsenic being immoral to give to someone else is totally simplistic. I might give someone arsenic who intends to murder me, or who is an opponent in war (as an example) and it would be what I "ought" to do in the social-normative context.

I stand by my position. We are capable of learning and growing and behaving in ways that are more positive to society, but whatever we do at any moment in time remains the best and only thing we were ever going to do.

brightphoton
06-22-2012, 10:30 PM
Usually, the old wife is traded in for a newer, more attractive model. Is jamie hotter than her husbands' previous two wives?

Andora
06-22-2012, 10:30 PM
I stand by my position. We are capable of learning and growing and behaving in ways that are more positive to society, but whatever we do at any moment in time remains the best and only thing we were ever going to do.

:rolleyes: I'll keep that in mind next time I get rear-ended driving, or my home is broken into. After all, it was the best that person could do.

Wyliefan
06-22-2012, 10:36 PM
Wow, I wish I'd known all this when I was a kid. Imagine all the punishments I could've talked my way out of with "But telling a lie/not finishing my homework/pulling my sister's hair was the best I could do!" :)

Prancer
06-22-2012, 10:41 PM
You know, I'm not down with people ragging on Jamie for this. It screams of misogeny to blame her. As far as I can tell, she was broken up with David and had made no vows to Christine. Isn't Craig the one who did the douchy thing by going against his vows to his wife? Place the blame where it's squarely deserved.

I think that a married person always bears much more responsibility when there is an affair, but I don't think that lets the other party entirely off the hook. I think you owe as much to other marriages/relationships as you expect other people to owe to yours. IOW, if you want people to respect the boundaries of your relationship, you need to respect theirs as well.


Well, i don't know the kids, nor have i seen the video, but I imagine that their upbringings and personal experiences will colour how they treat others in the future, so, maybe they had shit lives. I don't know.

Ah, the shit lives excuse. Yet so many people who have had shit lives manage to live lives as decent human beings, while plenty of people who have had pampered and privileged lives treat other people like crap.


In the end Jamie, David and Craig all got what they deserved: marriage to serial cheaters. None had any concern for the ex-spouses and/or children left in their wake.

I don't think that's fair, either. Just because you do something doesn't mean you do it without concern for others. There are ways to withdraw from a marriage without destroying others. Maybe they are all serial cheaters; maybe they aren't. Who knows what went on here?

Blair
06-22-2012, 10:50 PM
Wow, I wish I'd known all this when I was a kid. Imagine all the punishments I could've talked my way out of with "But telling a lie/not finishing my homework/pulling my sister's hair was the best I could do!" :)

wow, people are pretty unforgiving around here! 100 lashes, EVERYONE!

I would hope that your parents realized before they did an eye for an eye to you that kids pushing boundaries is totally a normal part of growing up ;)