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escaflowne9282
06-26-2012, 12:30 AM
I will never understand Tara's presentation marks in Nagano, particularly since she received higher presentation marks than Chen Lu. Something is seriously wrong with that, IMO. :confused:

Marks were placeholders under 6.0 and nothing more. There may simply have not been enough room on the night for a judge to fully divide the skaters as they should have been while still coming up with the ordinals he/she wanted.

duane
06-26-2012, 01:11 AM
You love Tara's "artistry" duane, no denying.
I'm simply speaking up for a skater whose technical/artistic abilities are belittled all these years later. And actually, neither Tara nor Michelle is my favorite when it comes to artistry.

skateboy
06-26-2012, 01:46 AM
Despite the fact the judges in Nagano IMO overscored Tara and underscored Kwan

Not a fact, merely your opinion. ;)

aftershocks
06-26-2012, 01:59 AM
^^ Yes, thanks skateboy, you state the obvious. I know there are people in and outside of skating who would agree with me, and just as many others who do not. But also obviously, it really doesn't matter in the long run.

And thanks to you too duane. IMO, Tara had above average athletic skills and skating talent. She was clearly a skating prodigy, especially as a jumper (despite having technical issues with her 2-axel). However, altho' her artistic abilities at age 15 were very promising and better than quite a few of her peers, she still was not fully developed as an artist, and her skating in general had a lot more room for development. In any case, after winning Olympic gold, Tara apparently wasn't motivated to push her eligible skating any further. Luckily for her, she won Olympic gold before her skating career was impacted by injury.

IMO, 15-year-old Tara in Nagano was very similar to 14-year-old Michelle at 1995 Worlds. Yet Michelle was scored out of the medals at that Worlds for her lack of maturity, and Tara was rewarded the whole shebang in Nagano. As a fan of Kwan, yes it rankled then and the memory of it often still does too, but hey life and figure skating inevitably can break our hearts. Kudos to Tara. Kudos and many thanks to Michelle for the amazing journey she has shared on and off the ice.

duane
06-26-2012, 02:31 AM
I never said Tara had fully developed as an artist, and likewise, I don't think Michelle had fully developed at 15. But both clearly had developed enough...Michelle enough to beat a clean Chen Lu at Worlds 96 and Tara enough to beat a clean Michelle Kwan at Olympics 98.

In regards to your dig at Tara not being "motivated to push her eligible skating any further", why is Tara being bashed for something SO many skaters (before and after) have done? Yes, many competed at Worlds, but mostly all retired from eligible skating the same year they won Olympic gold. Who knows...perhaps Michelle would have retired from eligible skating if she had won 98 Olympic gold.

judgejudy27
06-26-2012, 02:34 AM
I agree Michelle would likely have retired had she won the 98 Oly Gold. The funny thing is so many seem clueless to the fact her own legacy she was lucky the judges did not agree with some of her ubers who are insistent she was robbed of the gold that year. Otherwise likely nobody would be saying she was the best ever today, she would be similar to Yu Na, an amazing skater who didnt stay around long enough, and her career at that point would have been inferior to Yu Na's today, even with the Olympic Gold. While I am sure she was dissapointed at the time, and rightfully so, it is probably still today the greatest silver medal performance in history, and beatable only by a handful or less of gold medal performances, in the grand scheme of things it worked out the best it possibly could have for her, especialy given her immense love of competition, skating, challenge, and winning. She missed out on the boom years of pro skating, but the pro World was already starting to go downhill post Nagano anyway with all the stupid new pro ams, and the World Pro Championships including skaters like Michelle Kwan and Alexei Yagudin who were still dominant amateur skaters.

aftershocks
06-26-2012, 02:45 AM
I never said Tara had fully developed as an artist, and likewise, I don't think Michelle had fully developed at 15. But both clearly had developed enough...Michelle enough to beat a clean Chen Lu at Worlds 96 and Tara enough to beat a clean Michelle Kwan at Olympics 98.

In regards to your dig at Tara not being "motivated to push her eligible skating any further", why is Tara being bashed for something SO many skaters (before and after) have done? Yes, many competed at Worlds, but mostly all retired from eligible skating the same year they won Olympic gold. Who knows...perhaps Michelle would have retired from eligible skating if she had won 98 Olympic gold.

Well, it was "enough" in the eyes of that particular judging panel, and that's all that counts.

Not a "dig" at Tara, and most certainly not a "bash." Tara won Olympic gold. Once anyone wins that ultimate achievement especially at such a young age, it makes sense they might find it hard to continue being motivated.

Michelle has always said her goal was to participate in more than one Olympics. No way now to know if she would have continued if she'd won gold in Nagano. I believe she would have. Many people expected Tara to continue too especially due to how young she was and how much more she could have developed. I think Tara, Oksana, and Sarah having won at such young ages, were not motivated to continue competing, whereas Michelle seemed to be energized and fueled by competition. Of course not winning gold likely fueled Kwan's competitive spirit even more. Had Kwan won gold in Nagano tho' I think she would have continued through 2002 and maybe Worlds 2003 and then called it quits.

ETA:
Yep, it's Michelle's journey and the lessons found in it that ultimately have more meaning than simply winning Olympic gold. Winning or not winning, it's always how you respond to what happens to you that makes the difference.

duane
06-26-2012, 02:49 AM
No way now to know if she would have continued if she'd won gold in Nagano. I believe she would have.
As if we didn't know.

aftershocks
06-26-2012, 03:04 AM
^^ Wow, another all-knowing FSUer. So very prescient. Now that sure sounds like a "dig." ;)

AxelAnnie
06-26-2012, 03:05 AM
You love Tara's "artistry" duane, no denying. Despite the fact the judges in Nagano IMO overscored Tara and underscored Kwan doesn't mean that "Tara was able to compete so closely with Kwan's artistry." It simply means that those panel of judges gave Tara the win. IMO, it was certainly not because Tara's "artistry" was comparable to or even competitive with Kwan's. Tara was a graceful skater and fun to watch, but she had miles to go in developing her artistry. Her movements were much???? more studied rather than flowing naturally. Sure, Tara skated some lovely programs, but her fp in Nagano was not one of them, again IMO.

How can your opinion be a fact? I have :slinkaway

Tara's performance was riveting... I say she deserved every mark she got... To go out there and skate balls to the walls, execute every move she planned and perform that program with heart and commitment.... Well that is what wins you the Gold Medal.

Ask Oksana.... Sarah Hughes (who had no business winning.... Except she skated better than she had a right to... OR ask Sasha who should have won but couldn't folded.... And yet managed to be magical for the second one half of the program.

And don't be fooled..... That OGM is worth millions of World titles... It's worth is demonstrated in every way one can measure... Doesn't mean one can't be great without it.... Just means it is the biggest prize in the sport

aftershocks
06-26-2012, 03:09 AM
Okay, AxelAnnie, thanks for weighing in with your opinion. :D

leafygreens
06-27-2012, 06:20 PM
I definitely agree that Tara was a skating prodigy athletically, but she was not artistically and MK had both. Also, now, the "prodigy" title is a bit dubious, or at least unfair, since there will never again be another prodigy due to the age rule. So Tara wins all future prodigy rights simply by default.

Rogue
06-27-2012, 06:38 PM
And don't be fooled..... That OGM is worth millions of World titles... It's worth is demonstrated in every way one can measure... Doesn't mean one can't be great without it.... Just means it is the biggest prize in the sport

I guess I've been fooled as well, but to me an OGM is not worth even 3 World titles, much less millions of them. I'll always see Browning as a better skater than Urmanov or Kwan as a better skater than Hughes. And it would surprise me greatly if Urmanov and Hughes had greater cumulative earnings/endorsement deals than Browning/Kwan.

duane
06-27-2012, 10:56 PM
I'll always see Browning as a better skater than Urmanov or Kwan as a better skater than Hughes. And it would surprise me greatly if Urmanov and Hughes had greater cumulative earnings/endorsement deals than Browning/Kwan.
Regardless, what AxelAnnie said is true:

Doesn't mean one can't be great without it.... Just means it is the biggest prize in the sport.

Michelle and Kurt are two skating royalties with megabucks and megafans, but I think there is no question that not winning the OGM--the "biggest prize in the sport"--is a thorn in their rosy resumes.

skateboy
06-29-2012, 07:01 AM
I guess I've been fooled as well, but to me an OGM is not worth even 3 World titles, much less millions of them.

I'd say that an OGM is worth the four World Gold Medals of its quadrennial.