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smarts1
06-20-2012, 03:48 AM
Sandra Bezic's biggest weakness as a choreographer was creating step sequences. The patterns she created tended to be stuck in the corner of the rink and the patterns tended to be very shallow.

dawnie
06-20-2012, 04:11 AM
I don't think she deserved her two World medals in 2005 and 2008 either - I can't believe she won a medal in 2008 over Nakano. If she skates cleanly or near cleanly with full jump content, the judges aremore than ready to put her on par with a top-notch Asada or Kim.

Kostner medaling over Kwan was ridiculous but her silver medal in 2008 was the biggest joke of all time. To think she was less than a point away from winning! They wanted to give her that title no matter what that year. The judging panel literally had ONE judge that wasn't European. Let's face it. If Kostner was not Italian, she would have been another Sarah Meier- i.e. middle of the pack skater that isn't really champion material. It's like once Speedy realized there was an Italian girl who had all the triples, the deal was done. Most overmarked skater ever.

That said, I didn't vote for her in any round. :lol:

Marco
06-20-2012, 05:09 AM
I agree with this. But after that 96 season, which was not very strong except for her brilliant Worlds performances, she was never the same skater. I can throw away 96-97 since Li Mingzhu and her fed were abusing her. But her comeback in 97-98 showed us a very much weaker skater, jumps that were not there or UR'd and she never had strong spins. I nervously rooted for her to get bronze at Nagano and was pleased, but except for her exceptional choreography and je nes se quois, I really think Maria outskated her, considering all of Lu Chen's under-rotations and poor spins, and weak carriage.

Still, I find it hard for a WC in 2012 to compete with Katarina Witt level jumps. I mean, just bring back Yuka Sato, who can skate circles around Kostner if all she had to do were sals and toes (and Yuka had a consistent loop). It's hard to judge Kostner, because her jumps are sooooo not what you would expect after 1989. Yet now she is WC. She is the weakest link.

Agree with Chen in 1998. She wasn't half the skater she used to be. When she was in top form, the delay in her jumps was beautiful. In 1998 it just led to under-rotations. Fortunately, Butyrskaya didn't help her own case by landing all jumps stiffly and with the free foot extremely low and failing to do even one combination jump.

For the record, Kostner did not win with Witt level jumps. She won with a 3flip, a 3loop, 3toe3toe and 2axel3toe. I don't recall Witt ever executing more than 1 of the above in the same competition.

Re: Kostner vs Sato - Sato was a great skater but many of her big jumps in 1994 were under-rotated and she would struggle to add a 2toe which would be so tiny. She would never have loops and flips, or combination jumps, of Kostner's quality.

judgejudy27
06-20-2012, 05:27 AM
LOL at the talk of Kwan being robbed in 2005. As you can tell by my other comments I am not a Kostner backer but except for her short program Kwan sucked at the 2005 Worlds, and even her loyal fans have said as much. Why anyone would argue she was robbed of a medal. Kostner probably should have finished further ahead of her than she did. In the short program she was the only one to skate cleanly with a triple-triple and her short was actually quite beautiful, she should have won the short program ahead of Slutskaya, Cohen, and Kwan, with Irina and Sasha's mistakes, even though Michelle did a pretty good short, but still deliberate and trying to get the levels right. Her long program wasnt that strong, but Michelle's boring Bolero with major mistakes, lower level elements, and only 4 triples completed, wasnt any better, and she was lucky to edge Kostner in that program. Her Q round rightfully put her behind, and she was already scored generously enough compared to Kostner in the other 2 programs, and still didnt pass her.

2008 is a different story. Gift of the century there, and the judges were definitely salivating to give her the gold. Before Worlds everyone thought it was Kim or Asada's to lose but it turned out it was Kostner's to lose all along with that panel, hence nearly winning with about 5 mistakes in her long program, and winning the short over a clean Asada with a missed triple lutz.

I also agree Chen's bronze in 98 was a gift. Even with their more glaring technical mistakes that night the Russian girls were still technically far stronger than her at that point with her weak spins, non existent footwork, and sloppy, barely rotated, stalked, or underrotated jumps. I would have given her no more than a 5.4 for technical merit in the long program even if she mostly landed her jumps sort of clean, and had 2 triple lutzes. I also agree with the judge who gave her only a 4.9 for required elements in the short program. Such weak elements compared to the other top girls, even if she got all 8 done.

briancoogaert
06-20-2012, 06:28 PM
Lets compare Chen's best to Kostner's (thus far) best:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCRaoNfU0r8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONViuMXi2nE

Chen is still better. So even the "Kostner at her best" doesnt help her compared to Chen, if we also assume Chen at her best.

Why did you pick those two particular performances ?
Anyway, you only care about quantity of jumps.

judgejudy27
06-20-2012, 06:37 PM
Why did you pick those two particular performances ?
Anyway, you only care about quantity of jumps.

LOL no I dont. If I only cared about jump content I would say Leonova should have won Worlds last year but I havent and wouldnt in a million years. Chen's program was an artistic masterpiece which got two 6.0s for artistry, and which many felt she was robbed of not winning even vs a clean and inspired Kwan who threw in an extra triple. Kostner has never done a program that would get 6.0s for artistic impression at a World event. The only things possibly better about Kostner's performance would be spins and spirals, but really not much better. Kostner also isnt a great spinner as I already mentioned, and her layback isnt as good as Chen's, and Chen had fairly good spirals as well.

I chose those two performances since those were their best ever performances. If you disagree then post Kostner's best ever performance in a long program. People in the Chen vs Kostner comparision bring up "I know she is inconsistent but Kostner at her best..." and the above clips just show even her best (a real best which she has had a decade to try and show, not a hypothetical best if she did her 2008 jump content cleanly with her 2011 programs, with this and that, all combined, etc...) is not better if we compare to Chen's best as well.

Vash01
06-20-2012, 06:51 PM
LOL at the talk of Kwan being robbed in 2005. As you can tell by my other comments I am not a Kostner backer but except for her short program Kwan sucked at the 2005 Worlds, and even her loyal fans have said as much. Why anyone would argue she was robbed of a medal. Kostner probably should have finished further ahead of her than she did. In the short program she was the only one to skate cleanly with a triple-triple and her short was actually quite beautiful, she should have won the short program ahead of Slutskaya, Cohen, and Kwan, with Irina and Sasha's mistakes, even though Michelle did a pretty good short, but still deliberate and trying to get the levels right. Her long program wasnt that strong, but Michelle's boring Bolero with major mistakes, lower level elements, and only 4 triples completed, wasnt any better, and she was lucky to edge Kostner in that program. Her Q round rightfully put her behind, and she was already scored generously enough compared to Kostner in the other 2 programs, and still didnt pass her.

2008 is a different story. Gift of the century there, and the judges were definitely salivating to give her the gold. Before Worlds everyone thought it was Kim or Asada's to lose but it turned out it was Kostner's to lose all along with that panel, hence nearly winning with about 5 mistakes in her long program, and winning the short over a clean Asada with a missed triple lutz.

I also agree Chen's bronze in 98 was a gift. Even with their more glaring technical mistakes that night the Russian girls were still technically far stronger than her at that point with her weak spins, non existent footwork, and sloppy, barely rotated, stalked, or underrotated jumps. I would have given her no more than a 5.4 for technical merit in the long program even if she mostly landed her jumps sort of clean, and had 2 triple lutzes. I also agree with the judge who gave her only a 4.9 for required elements in the short program. Such weak elements compared to the other top girls, even if she got all 8 done.

I have only highlighted portions that I want to talk about.

In 2005 worlds Kwan had a poor QR, but she had very good SP and LP. It's not that Kwan sucked, but the judges chose to ignore the flaws in Kostner's performance, and overmarked CK. It was clearly Kwan's fault that she did not deliver in the QR, but with fair judging she would have placed higher than CK overall. At that time Carolina was still gawky/coltish, and not the artist she is today, while MK was a great artist.

In 1998 Oly Chen Lu won partly because Maria was the first to skate overall in the SP, which as per Hamilton is 'Kiss of death'. Maria was so far behind entering LP- she did make the final group for LP-that she had to have a great skate to beat Chen Lu's emotional, though imperfect performance. Maria was the last skater, who faced pressure to have a great performance. She was never the artist that Lulu was. She made some mistakes and pretty much missed out on the bronze. I don't think Chen Lu was gifted by the judges, but there was some luck involved there. Considering what Lulu had been through, people were happy for her.

judgejudy27
06-20-2012, 06:55 PM
I woudnt quite agree Kwan had a very good LP in 2005. She had only 4 clean triples, a fall, a 2 foot landing, numerous lower level non jump elements so her program wasnt COP friendly yet, and was skating to that awful Bolero program which is by far her most drab, uninspiring, and poorly choreographed program ever IMHO. I cant believe Christopher Dean created it.

burntBREAD
06-20-2012, 07:32 PM
I thought Maria Butyrskaya was 3rd going into the long program at Nagano?? Chen Lu got some awful tech scores and Irina Slutskaya did a double-double combination. (Surya Bonaly was 6th after the SP)

Cheylana
06-20-2012, 08:12 PM
nm

Alex Forrest
06-20-2012, 08:15 PM
If I am not mistaken, Christopher Dean was reported to have washed his hands of that program because Kwan had taken out so much of the choreography in order to try for a clean program. I'd have to look back, but by the time Worlds came around there was almost no mention of Dean as the choreographer.

Marco
06-20-2012, 08:21 PM
I thought Maria Butyrskaya was 3rd going into the long program at Nagano?? Chen Lu got some awful tech scores and Irina Slutskaya did a double-double combination. (Surya Bonaly was 6th after the SP)

That's correct. But if she had skated a bit later, there could be a case for her to place second. Lipinski's scores in the short program were not very high. Chen was clearly fourth at best due to her weaker elements, despite her superior presentation. Slutskaya only did a 2lutz2toe but was placed fifth correctly simply because no other medal contenders (Bobek, Gusmeroli, Hubert) stepped up.

kwanatic
06-20-2012, 08:28 PM
Is this round over yet? :yawn:

npavel
06-20-2012, 11:25 PM
........., but I don't respect her as an athlete.

How can't you respect her as an athlete? I respect every athlete entering in a competition, they are all working hard for deliver, but some can, others struggle. I respect them and enjoy something of the most of them. I never could say something like that for an athlete

Triple Butz
06-20-2012, 11:27 PM
That's correct. But if she had skated a bit later, there could be a case for her to place second. Lipinski's scores in the short program were not very high. Chen was clearly fourth at best due to her weaker elements, despite her superior presentation. Slutskaya only did a 2lutz2toe but was placed fifth correctly simply because no other medal contenders (Bobek, Gusmeroli, Hubert) stepped up.

I'm personally okay with Chen's bronze because I did think she was better than Maria. Two-foot landings vs under-rotations...we know which is worse under the current system, but it wasn't so cut and dry in 6.0...wasn't there something about two-footed jumps receiving NO CREDIT in 6.0? Although I would have placed Slutskaya 3rd in the free, you can't deny that Chen's presentation was light years ahead. I also thought Slutskaya was lucky to overtake Bonaly in the sp (not that that would have impacted her chances for bronze the way things turned out.)