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Jammers
06-19-2012, 11:27 PM
Lets be honest though how much easier is it for someone like Kostner who never has to worry about making a World or Olympic team since she has virtually no competiton in her home country. I bet she doesn't even have to skate at her Nationals to qualify for the Italian team.

judgejudy27
06-19-2012, 11:32 PM
Lets compare Chen's best to Kostner's (thus far) best:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCRaoNfU0r8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONViuMXi2nE

Chen is still better. So even the "Kostner at her best" doesnt help her compared to Chen, if we also assume Chen at her best.


Needless to say Chen, the much more consistent skater delivered a much higher average or consistent level performance too:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0bsGN2TCDM8 1992 Olympics LP
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNMp2bylAhY 1993 Worlds LP
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53D2gjrmDnU 1994 Olympics LP
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MzUzMOdtqNg&feature=related 1995 Worlds LP
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zN_Y-gza-N8&feature=related 1998 Olympics LP

Apart from the fluke of 1997 Worlds under crazy circumstances the girl didnt even know how to have a bad skate at a big event, in stark contrast to Kostner. Even if it might have been right based on the competitions one by one (some would say it isnt) it is a real shame she only won 1 global title. Especialy when you compare to Kostner who manages only 1 decent performance ever at a World or Olympic event and it nets her the same number.

berthesghost
06-19-2012, 11:33 PM
She has skated lots of memorable and great programsI'm sure this opinion is true to you personally. However, please don't ever press a gun to my head because I will die. I couln't tell you one single thing about any of her imo forgetable programs. Nothing. Nada. :shuffle:

Vash01
06-20-2012, 12:09 AM
I agree that she was prone to mistakes in competition and that's why she will and should be voted off now. All the other ladies were far more consistent than her.

Respect for an athlete can't and shouldn't only be based on someone's competitive history or record, the amount of medals someone won or how consistently well someone performed in competition.

.

Finally, some logic in your post.

Different people respect different things. Here we are talking about world/Olympic champions. It does not have a lot to do with personal things like facing criticism, or whatever else you use for respecting her. I do respect persistence, but there are plenty of other skaters that have overcome adversity- some of them much tougher situations. Carolina could stick around for years and years because no one else could represent her country. The best they had was Fontana, who was never a medal contender, even in a GP. I say Carolina had it real easy, but that aside, judging from the on-ice performance, she should have been eliminated in the previous round. I remember how many really bad performances she has had. It's only recently that she has started skating relatively clean, and that's only after she stopped doing the lutz and the flip.

jiggs
06-20-2012, 12:12 AM
I'm sure this opinion is true to you personally. However, please don't ever press a gun to my head because I will die. I couln't tell you one single thing about any of her imo forgetable programs. Nothing. Nada. :shuffle:

Well then maybe it's time for you to double check & take a proper look at some of her programs again :) Like her Worlds SPs from 2003, 2004, 2005, 2007 or 2008. Or her Worlds FPs from 2005, 2010, 2011 & 2012. Not to mention her signature pieces to Shostakovich or Mozart this year.

Again, I want to say that I can see why Carolina is being voted off now. I still think though that a lot of people here make her look far worse than she actually is.

smarts1
06-20-2012, 12:22 AM
I'm with you on that, you know.
I'm so sad few of us see how amazing Carolina is. :wuzrobbed

Anyway, even if I'm an MK fan (and a Caro fan), I feel something for Tara, and her 1997 Worlds SP&LP will always be in my best memories.

... Caro is lucky she even made it this far after getting saved by one poster in round two and has consistently been the second choice every round to get booted off until this round. She's long due to go even if she has some amazing qualities to her skating.

Unfortunately, we're in a judged sport and Caro has failed to deliver multiple times and has even resorted to diluting her jump content. She's fallen out of the top 10 at Worlds numerous times, which can't be said of any of the other champions on (and who were previously on) this list. She also has the lowest Olympics placement of all the champions who were listed in round one. If her skating wasn't so decent, she would have been booted off a long time ago.

judgejudy27
06-20-2012, 12:23 AM
Well then maybe it's time for you to double check & take a proper look at some of her programs again :) Like her Worlds SPs from 2003, 2004, 2005, 2007 or 2008. Or her Worlds FPs from 2005, 2010, 2011 & 2012. Not to mention her signature pieces to Shostakovich or Mozart this year.

Again, I want to say that I can see why Carolina is being voted off now. I still think though that a lot of people here make her look far worse than she actually is.

You think her Worlds LP in 2005 was impressive. :lol: :scream: She didnt land any clean jumps in the 2nd half of her program, and was a ragdoll flying around the rink at that point (though at the end of her program when she ran out of energy and started missing every jump she tried, she also became increasingly slow). Even an aging Kwan with a mediocre mistake filled and COP unfriendly LP beat her in the LP at those Worlds, only losing the bronze due to the Q round.

casken
06-20-2012, 12:52 AM
Lets compare Chen's best to Kostner's (thus far) best:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCRaoNfU0r8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONViuMXi2nE

Chen is still better.

See, other than the two beautiful lutzes that Chen did, Kostner's skate for me is the superior one.

But then again I never loved that program from Chen the way other people do, especially compared to almost every single LP she did as an eligible skater. The way she trails the music during the footwork sequence and misses the music when she does the leap at the end of it always bothered me, not to mention the rest period followed by the wobbly flat edged straight line spirals. :shuffle:

pollyanna
06-20-2012, 12:52 AM
I thought Kostner's 2005 LP was fabulous. 2 mistakes - she fell out of a 3sal at the back end of a combo, although her seat never touched the ice, and she had a slight step out on a 2axel at the very end of the program. And she did double a loop. Her footwork and spins (in both directions) were wonderful. I gave her bonus points for skating to Prokofiev's piano concerto #3. I certainly don't remember her missing every jump she tried. Kwan beat her in the LP by less than a point.

And this from a huge Kwan fan, and I wasn't a particular fan of Kostner in 2005, although I've grown into a big fan now.

Alex Forrest
06-20-2012, 12:56 AM
Carolina does have better skating skills than Chen Lu or almost anyone. Better jumping skills though? Chen has better jumping skills based on her ability to peel off 6 or 7 triple programs with a 2nd triple lutz repeatedly from 93-96.

I agree with this. But after that 96 season, which was not very strong except for her brilliant Worlds performances, she was never the same skater. I can throw away 96-97 since Li Mingzhu and her fed were abusing her. But her comeback in 97-98 showed us a very much weaker skater, jumps that were not there or UR'd and she never had strong spins. I nervously rooted for her to get bronze at Nagano and was pleased, but except for her exceptional choreography and je nes se quois, I really think Maria outskated her, considering all of Lu Chen's under-rotations and poor spins, and weak carriage.

Still, I find it hard for a WC in 2012 to compete with Katarina Witt level jumps. I mean, just bring back Yuka Sato, who can skate circles around Kostner if all she had to do were sals and toes (and Yuka had a consistent loop). It's hard to judge Kostner, because her jumps are sooooo not what you would expect after 1989. Yet now she is WC. She is the weakest link.

smarts1
06-20-2012, 01:38 AM
See, other than the two beautiful lutzes that Chen did, Kostner's skate for me is the superior one.

But then again I never loved that program from Chen the way other people do, especially compared to almost every single LP she did as an eligible skater. The way she trails the music during the footwork sequence and misses the music when she does the leap at the end of it always bothered me, not to mention the rest period followed by the wobbly flat edged straight line spirals. :shuffle:

Blasphemy. I can't believe there's someone who is bashing Lulu's artistry, even if everyone is entitled to their opinion... But yeah, quite honestly, everyone's favorite LP ever from Lulu was to Rachmaninoff, but I personally liked her Last Emperor and Butterfly Lovers a lot better.

casken
06-20-2012, 01:39 AM
Blasphemy. I can't believe there's someone who is bashing Lulu's artistry, even if everyone is entitled to their opinion...

I know! I knew that wouldn't be a popular opinion. :lol:

shady82
06-20-2012, 02:45 AM
I wanted to say that I admire Carolina for never giving up and finally reaching the top. After the 2009 Worlds, I was really exasperated with her - she had skated so many meltdown LPs at that point, I wasn't sure why she still thought she could pull of two clean programs. She lost one of Italy's berths to the Olympics, got it instead of Valentina, and then skated poorly again at the Olympics, which made me pretty angry. At that point I had written her off, but she came back and skated a beautiful program at the 2010 Worlds (and I was bummed CoP's ludicrous UR rules lowered her technical scores too much).

She did win 2012 Worlds, and I think it's incredible she kept it sticking it out, even though I was pretty sure she would never have done it back in 2009. I do admire her as a competitor.

With that said, I also agree she should have been eliminated much earlier. She won several European titles, but the European women haven't been strong in awhile. I don't think she deserved her two World medals in 2005 and 2008 either - I can't believe she won a medal in 2008 over Nakano. If she skates cleanly or near cleanly with full jump content, the judges aremore than ready to put her on par with a top-notch Asada or Kim. I'm personally not a fan of her style, which explains why I would have her eliminated before Ando, but that's just my subjective preferences.

Overall, I still really admire her for sticking it out and proving everyone wrong.

flipforsynchro
06-20-2012, 03:04 AM
Caro has a really nice jumps, even if she's not exactly 100% consistent with them.

Triple Butz
06-20-2012, 03:09 AM
See, other than the two beautiful lutzes that Chen did, Kostner's skate for me is the superior one.

But then again I never loved that program from Chen the way other people do, especially compared to almost every single LP she did as an eligible skater. The way she trails the music during the footwork sequence and misses the music when she does the leap at the end of it always bothered me

I love Lu and I definitely think she deserves to be here at least another week or two, but ITA about that step sequence. Almost everything in that LP is gorgeous and expresses the music wonderfully, but the step sequence sticks out like a sore thumb as she prances around completely missing the dramatic pauses in the cadenza. It's actually one of the main reasons I prefer Kwan's LP that year. Well, that and the spins ;)