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danafan
07-23-2012, 02:11 PM
Seriously, the Olympics are two years away. Davis and White were sixth at worlds back in 2008, half way to 2010. Why shouldnt I&K be realistic medal hopefuls for 2014 at this stage?

sap5
07-23-2012, 02:25 PM
You might want to check your facts before you post (http://www.isuresults.com/results/wc2012/CAT008RS.HTM) :shuffle:

But according to this (http://www.isuresults.com/ws/ws/wsdance.htm), the poster is right.

Macassar88
07-23-2012, 02:52 PM
Seriously, the Olympics are two years away. Davis and White were sixth at worlds back in 2008, half way to 2010. Why shouldnt I&K be realistic medal hopefuls for 2014 at this stage?

I think that they could be, but my prediction is that thy will be overtaken by Capellini and Lanotte, Bobrova and Soloviev and possibly even Riazonova and Tkachenko. That said, I don't doubt that they are extremely talented.

dots
07-23-2012, 03:00 PM
Seriously, the Olympics are two years away. Davis and White were sixth at worlds back in 2008, half way to 2010. Why shouldnt I&K be realistic medal hopefuls for 2014 at this stage?

because they are not as talented as D/W...

just saying :shuffle: :slinkaway

DORISPULASKI
07-23-2012, 03:15 PM
Or perhaps more to the point, not as hard working.

D&W and the Shibs are legendary in this regard, as were V&M prior to Tessa's compartment syndrome.

Here's a typical article (new this month) about Capellini & Lanotte, and it includes discussion of the effects the split had on them, and that they are happy with Igor)

http://www.goldenskate.com/2012/07/cappellini-and-lanotte-ready-to-challenge/


Beforehand, Cappellini and Lanotte had spoken to Zueva and Shpilband about coming to Canton.

“We were very excited to join such a successful school with such hard working students. Our agreement was to work with both coaches, therefore we feel these allegations have nothing to do with us,” Cappellini explained, referring to rumors that they were a reason for the conflict between the coaches.

Cherub721
07-23-2012, 04:01 PM
Or perhaps more to the point, not as hard working.

D&W and the Shibs are legendary in this regard, as were V&M prior to Tessa's compartment syndrome.

The bolded part is my thoughts exactly. I&K have an awful lot of natural talent. I think they looked better in juniors than seniors, so that's not good.

Regarding V&M, I doubt they worked any less hard after Tessa's diagnosis; quite the contrary, I'm guessing. While I'm sure they had to cut down some training time and work smarter to give her a chance to heal from surgery, I would say revamping your entire stroking technique instead of retiring definitely shows great work ethic.

I don't understand why I&K didn't pick any of this up, since Elena used to train with all these guys (not sure if the Shibs were in Canton then). To get back on topic, as a partnerless dancer, what type of training exactly would Elena have been doing in Shpilband's group? It's such a pity that I&K lost crucial developmental years together. Skating since childhood together is part of what makes Shibs, V&M, and D&W so good.

Macassar88
07-23-2012, 04:05 PM
The bolded part is my thoughts exactly. I&K have an awful lot of natural talent. I think they looked better in juniors than seniors, so that's not good.

Regarding V&M, I doubt they worked any less hard after Tessa's diagnosis; quite the contrary, I'm guessing. While I'm sure they had to cut down some training time and work smarter to give her a chance to heal from surgery, I would say revamping your entire stroking technique instead of retiring definitely shows great work ethic.

I don't understand why I&K didn't pick any of this up, since Elena used to train with all these guys (not sure if the Shibs were in Canton then). To get back on topic, as a partnerless dancer, what type of training exactly would Elena have been doing in Shpilband's group? It's such a pity that I&K lost crucial developmental years together. Skating since childhood together is part of what makes Shibs, V&M, and D&W so good.

I agree with this post
I wonder if part of the reason they don't work as hard as they could is because they were force by the Russian federation to partner back up? Maybe they don't like each other that much?
Anyway I think the best way to deal with them is to send them to a hard ass like Linichuk who will take away their phones and force them to work. The nice way obviously hasn't worked well enough.

allezfred
07-23-2012, 04:07 PM
But according to this (http://www.isuresults.com/ws/ws/wsdance.htm), the poster is right.

The poster is only right on those terms if the current Olympic and World champions are the third best team in the world. :P

aka_gerbil
07-23-2012, 04:12 PM
Or perhaps more to the point, not as hard working.

D&W and the Shibs are legendary in this regard, as were V&M prior to Tessa's compartment syndrome.


IMO, I/K have all the talent in the world. It's just that from what you here from time-to-time, it doesn't sound like they're working as hard as they could be. The report that they didn't train between worlds and the WTT made me want to strangle them. All the talent in the world is not enough by itself to put someone on top of a World or Olympic podium.

I know V/M have had to alter their training regimen due to Tessa's leg problems, but you know that they're putting in absolutely as much effort as they possibly can into their training. I/K seem to idolize V/M, so you think that maybe they'd pick up on the hard work part and try to emulate that. Or, you know, they could emulate any of the other Canton teams, or W/P and P/B, or any of the many, many other teams out there who work so very hard to try to be the best their abilities will let them be.

ETA: While I was posting, Cherub perfectly summed up what I was trying to say about V/M:


Regarding V&M, I doubt they worked any less hard after Tessa's diagnosis; quite the contrary, I'm guessing. While I'm sure they had to cut down some training time and work smarter to give her a chance to heal from surgery, I would say revamping your entire stroking technique instead of retiring definitely shows great work ethic.


Anyway I think the best way to deal with them is to send them to a hard ass like Linichuk who will take away their phones and force them to work. The nice way obviously hasn't worked well enough.

Shared brain! I know Linichuk isn't too popular right now, but she's a hard ass as you put it, and that may be what they need more than anything else. They need someone who's going to not put up with any crap and raise hell anytime they're not putting in 100% effort.

DORISPULASKI
07-23-2012, 04:42 PM
I was thinking in terms of Tessa & Scott's number of hours per week on the ice, which may have been different in 2009, 2010 & 2011 than their training mates...yes, they absolutely had to work smarter...yes I have no questions at all about their work ethic...it is excellent...but sometimes the spirit is willing, but the body is weak

Elena would have been at S&Z's prior to spring 2008 (when I&K reunited in Moscow, according to their ISU bio), all 3 teams would have been working at peak level.

Shibutanis have been with S&Z since 2007, so they would have been there as well.

As to what she might have learned, it appears to me she learned to twizzle smoothly. Since I don't know what she could do before she went to S&Z, I can't say otherwise.

julieann
07-23-2012, 05:52 PM
But according to this (http://www.isuresults.com/ws/ws/wsdance.htm), the poster is right.

Is that a real accurate measurement of how good a team is or how many more competitions they were able to compete at?

martyross
07-23-2012, 07:34 PM
Or perhaps more to the point, not as hard working.

D&W and the Shibs are legendary in this regard, as were V&M prior to Tessa's compartment syndrome.

Here's a typical article (new this month) about Capellini & Lanotte, and it includes discussion of the effects the split had on them, and that they are happy with Igor)

http://www.goldenskate.com/2012/07/cappellini-and-lanotte-ready-to-challenge/
everything in this post, including Cappellini's quote, made me realize that to be this much hard workers, while natural in elite skaters, may indicate a not very balanced mindset (work obsession?).
you know. from a simple human point of view.

martyross
07-23-2012, 07:40 PM
Anyway I think the best way to deal with them is to send them to a hard ass like Linichuk who will take away their phones and force them to work. The nice way obviously hasn't worked well enough.

wow

http://www.motifake.com/image/demotivational-poster/0908/gunnery-sgt-hartman-gunny-sgt-hartman-r-lee-ermey-war-demotivational-poster-1249998492.jpg

:D

Macassar88
07-23-2012, 07:51 PM
Well I know it's extreme but I'm stickin with my Linichuk idea for technical coach and get them a good choreographer. Because I don't even think that Tessa and Scott could have pulled off Aboriginal Dances...
Anyway this talk of Linichuk reminds me of those Nagano fluffs with the three ice dance divas. What happened to Natalia Dubova?
As for the hat work requiring an unnatural mindset I completely agree. But I think that you have to be obsessed with something to have a hope of being the best in the world at it.

aka_gerbil
07-23-2012, 07:53 PM
everything in this post, including Cappellini's quote, made me realize that to be this much hard workers, while natural in elite skaters, may indicate a not very balanced mindset (work obsession?).
you know. from a simple human point of view.

I think to make it to the top of this sport (or any sport, really), it requires monomaniacalness.


I was thinking in terms of Tessa & Scott's number of hours per week on the ice, which may have been different in 2009, 2010 & 2011 than their training mates...yes, they absolutely had to work smarter...yes I have no questions at all about their work ethic...it is excellent...but sometimes the spirit is willing, but the body is weak

Ah, I get what you're saying about the hours. They couldn't have put in the same number of hours because they weren't able to.

That actually leads me back to another one of the reasons I just want to strangle I/K at times. I think it's pretty safe to say that V/M would love to have those lost hours back. So would most of the other skaters/teams who have lost time to injury over the years. Then, there's another group of skaters who are not as naturally talented/abled as other teams, yet they make the most of everything, and train their rear ends off to achieve sucess for themselves. Sometimes, that success is defined as making the FS/FD at Worlds or Euros or a top ten finish, etc.

I/K have the talent. They're not battling an injury like the one V/M have had to contend with. That just makes it all the more frustrating when you here that they're not trying their hardest, like between Worlds and the WTT.

ETA:

What happened to Natalia Dubova?


I could be (and probably am) wrong about this, but I swear I remember reading that she was more or less semi-retired and sticking close to home, working with younger skaters now.